Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:58 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ah for crying out loud, how many pages in this and other threads?

A lot actually. There's very few things that make me as curious as other peoples moral perceptions. There's hardly any topic that interest me more, and there's so many questions to ask, so many differing views, with so little time to ask them all to everyone.
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26-05-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you think that when it comes to something like the golden rule, that people are not able to perceive this in some form of the other without a sort of social or cultural influence? That there's no sort of primordial perception that one's should desire on others, what they don't desire for themselves? Do you believe that our very nature doesn't incline us to this recognition beyond any sort of cultural or social indoctrination?

Convergent evolution.

So in essence our biological makeup can intuitively push us to perceive the golden rule or some form of it. One could in essence see a wrong in the actions of their own society, based on this seemingly innate perception?
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26-05-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Convergent evolution.

So in essence our biological makeup can intuitively push us to perceive the golden rule or some form of it. One could in essence see a wrong in the actions of their own society, based on this seemingly innate perception?

It's not an innate perception, it's an INSTINCT common to all social animals.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-05-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  outside of their society. As in not through the lens of their culture. It's potentially difficult. I don't know for certain, but it's probably a thing "education" helps someone do and I think literature/stories from other perspectives helps it a lot. Recent studies do show that reading even things like HarryPotter can help people relate to Outsiders like refugees and different cultural perspectives better.

So for that amazonian woman to have thought of it differently and saved that handicapped child, she was brave to act out. There is the case a lot of times people feel something others are doing is wrong, but are too afraid to act upon it because they feel alone and outnumbered by the majority. That can be a tough case to crack. The story of that woman is also relative to the farmer/whatever he was in the story who saved the live of Oedipus instead of letting the child die by order of the king.

Do you think that when it comes to something like the golden rule, that people are not able to perceive this in some form of the other without a sort of social or cultural influence? That there's no sort of primordial perception that one's should desire on others, what they don't desire for themselves? Do you believe that our very nature doesn't incline us to this recognition beyond any sort of cultural or social indoctrination?

It's an interesting case, we might think it is, but to what extend? How deeply ingrained and strong is it to apply to all other people, even deformed or non-similar ones... For instance, if that's the case why isn't it explicit for the Hebrews? Why isn't it one of the commandments, why did it take 2-1 more thousands years for Jesus to say that. I guess you can bicker about love thy neighbor but it didn't seem to apply cross-culturally in advice. It's not as direct as Confucius or Buddha is about it. I don't know if it was naturally picked up universally by humans or it took until the Eastern thought really cemented it and it crossed the silk road to blend with the Mediterranean closer to Jesus's time.

So I'm not certain for sure that an amazonian tribe around 2k years later would of grasped it since they had less contact with the worldly evolution of these social thoughts.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-05-2015, 03:10 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Convergent evolution.

So in essence our biological makeup can intuitively push us to perceive the golden rule or some form of it. One could in essence see a wrong in the actions of their own society, based on this seemingly innate perception?

No. Cultures occupy a niche. And as it is with evolutionary adaptations, organisms occupying the same niche converge on similar adaptations to exploit that niche.

Dolphin and tuna occupy the same niche and converge on a similar outward body plan (stream-lined adaptation).

Human cultures (the different "species" in this example) occupy the same niche (civilization is similar to the ocean in my example) and converge upon similar adaptations (morals) while occupying the same niche.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:08 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's not an innate perception, it's an INSTINCT common to all social animals.

I'm not sure what the fine line is here between innate and instinctual, but sure instinctual is fine as well.
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26-05-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Convergent evolution.

So in essence our biological makeup can intuitively push us to perceive the golden rule or some form of it. One could in essence see a wrong in the actions of their own society, based on this seemingly innate perception?

What do you think the human biological makeup constitutes?

So who is this "us"?

What do you mean by "see a wrong"?

Clarify what "perceptions" could be seemingly innate?

Why do you bother?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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26-05-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's an interesting case, we might think it is, but to what extend? How deeply ingrained and strong is it to apply to all other people, even deformed or non-similar ones... For instance, if that's the case why isn't it explicit for the Hebrews? Why isn't it one of the commandments, why did it take 2-1 more thousands years for Jesus to say that. I guess you can bicker about love thy neighbor but it didn't seem to apply cross-culturally in advice. It's not as direct as Confucius or Buddha is about it. I don't know if it was naturally picked up universally by humans or it took until the Eastern thought really cemented it and it crossed the silk road to blend with the Mediterranean closer to Jesus's time.

So I'm not certain for sure that an amazonian tribe around 2k years later would of grasped it since they had less contact with the worldly evolution of these social thoughts.

For the Western world the most direct influence here would be Judeo-Christianity, do you believe that the western worlds near universal perception of the golden-rule is greatly indebted to the Judeo-Christian tradition here?

I don't believe this, but I'm wondering if you do?
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26-05-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you want to keep your freedom or your facial structure intact. Folks tend to look askance at baby-torturers ... again, shared values.

So one shouldn't torture babies just for the fun of it, for fear of losing their freedom and social structure?

There's also what I mentioned earlier, about empathy. Most people have it. I do. I inherited it from my parents who inherited it from theirs, as cultural education.

So while you're right that there are consequences to violating the moral codes your culture has established, it's not so simple to say that one should be moral for the sake of avoiding social or legal remonstration. I think it's much more accurate to say that we rarely examine our moral outlooks at all, and often don't realize that they've been handed down from parent to child.

I also think there's a practical dimension, in that a society which countenanced actions like torturing babies or wholesale murder are less likely to succeed as a society, less likely to last as long. The Aztecs got no help from their neighbors (against whom they waged war in order to capture sacrificial victims) when the Spaniards showed up. Contrast that with the way the Plains Indians very often set aside grievances with each other when American settlers interloped on their lands.

A society that values life has a better chance of surviving, I think. A morality deriving from that valuation of life benefits all members willing to accept its premises.
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26-05-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:13 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  What do you think the human biological makeup constitutes?

Jeans?

Quote:What do you mean by "see a wrong"?

By knowing that I don't want to be ripped off, I can recognize that it would be wrong to rip off others.
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