Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:13 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  What do you think the human biological makeup constitutes?

Jeans?

Quote:What do you mean by "see a wrong"?

By knowing that I don't want to be ripped off, I can recognize that it would be wrong to rip off others.

So is stealing just plain wrong, or is it just that you would not alternatively want your stuff taken?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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26-05-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's an interesting case, we might think it is, but to what extend? How deeply ingrained and strong is it to apply to all other people, even deformed or non-similar ones... For instance, if that's the case why isn't it explicit for the Hebrews? Why isn't it one of the commandments, why did it take 2-1 more thousands years for Jesus to say that. I guess you can bicker about love thy neighbor but it didn't seem to apply cross-culturally in advice. It's not as direct as Confucius or Buddha is about it. I don't know if it was naturally picked up universally by humans or it took until the Eastern thought really cemented it and it crossed the silk road to blend with the Mediterranean closer to Jesus's time.

So I'm not certain for sure that an amazonian tribe around 2k years later would of grasped it since they had less contact with the worldly evolution of these social thoughts.

For the Western world the most direct influence here would be Judeo-Christianity, do you believe that the western worlds near universal perception of the golden-rule is greatly indebted to the Judeo-Christian tradition here?

I don't believe this, but I'm wondering if you do?

Judeo-Christian influence was significant. But there isn't a strong golden rule idea concept until the Christian element arises in the 1st century AD/CE

You don't see it explicitly in a lot of the ancient Greek, Egyptian or Jewish(pre Jesus) religious texts that exist today. So perhaps it wasn't innate in humans but came to the West by the time of Jesus. But we do know in the text 500 years earlier in the era of Buddha/Confucius, it was being written down. The silk trade was growing in this time frame where trade of ideas and goods spread across the China/India region to the Persians, and them to the Jewish regions.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-05-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:25 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So is stealing just plain wrong, or is it just that you would not alternatively want your stuff taken?

In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.
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26-05-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:25 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So is stealing just plain wrong, or is it just that you would not alternatively want your stuff taken?

In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.

As an atheist, why would I not come to the same conclusion?
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26-05-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:25 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You don't see it explicitly in a lot of the ancient Greek, Egyptian or Jewish(pre Jesus) religious texts that exist today. So perhaps it wasn't innate in humans but came to the West by the time of Jesus. But we do know in the text 500 years earlier in the era of Buddha/Confucius, it was being written down. The silk trade was growing in this time frame where trade of ideas and goods spread across the China/India region to the Persians, and them to the Jewish regions.

No, this doesn't seem to be accurate at all. The Golden Rule seems to be a derivate of love you neighbor as yourself.

But the notion of it is found in Greek, Egyptians, and Jewish text.

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.

—Shabbath folio:31a, Babylonian Talmud"

"Hinduism[edit]
See also: Hinduism
One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self.

—Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8)[55]"

"The Golden Rule in its prohibitive form was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy. Examples of the general concept include:

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales[18] (c. 624 BC – c. 546 BC)

"What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either. " – Sextus the Pythagorean.[19]

"Ancient Egypt[edit]
An early example of the Golden Rule that reflects the Ancient Egyptian concept of Maat appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do thus to you."[16] An example from a Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."[17]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
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26-05-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:31 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.

As an atheist, why would I not come to the same conclusion?

Who said you wouldn't?
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26-05-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
Yeah i was looking at this list.

http://www.harryhiker.com/chronology.htm

It does seem to have spread around but it came from other spurts all over the place really.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-05-2015, 03:41 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:31 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  As an atheist, why would I not come to the same conclusion?

Who said you wouldn't?

He is asking why would you not come to the same conclusion if morality were subjective?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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26-05-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:25 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So is stealing just plain wrong, or is it just that you would not alternatively want your stuff taken?

In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.

Where did your current cognition of "empathy" come from? Is this cognition universal to all humans? To other intelligent species on earth?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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26-05-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yeah i was looking at this list.

http://www.harryhiker.com/chronology.htm

It does seem to have spread around but it came from other spurts all over the place really.

I think the fact that's it's recognized all over the place, is more supportive of the notion the concept is rooted in something far more primordial, instinctive. In fact it seems to be an expression, of our empathy, that by recognizing that I don't want to be ripped off, I can perceive the wrong in ripping off others. No one needs to know of any the variety of iterations of the golden rule to recognize this.
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