Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 05:13 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 04:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So....about that moral subjectivity...

Including that question on "why would one not reach the same conclusion of morality were subjective?"

What's the subjective part here?

Either you didn't read my explanation, or you didn't understand it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:10 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw14Ua93M6k

"Religion is evil because it can make you do evil things, believing they are good"

You could argue that Richard is just using the wrong language, but he for sure makes it sound like he believes that the "evil things" that religion makes people do are really evil.

To suggest that some things are evil, it to suggest either an absolute or objective morality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Dawkins, and if I were to discuss with him, maybe I would find more agreement, but at the very least I will remain critical of at least the language he chooses when talking about evil.

That's not a stretch, that's decidedly incorrect that by using the word "evil" that Dawkins means "there is objective morality."

So is it equally true that "Religion is good because it can make you do good things, believing they are good"?

That the existence of evil, and an omnibenevolent God are not contradictions?
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26-05-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:13 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's the subjective part here?

Either you didn't read my explanation, or you didn't understand it.

Your views and questions often appear a bit more cryptic to me than others.
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26-05-2015, 05:18 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's not a stretch, that's decidedly incorrect that by using the word "evil" that Dawkins means "there is objective morality."

So it equally true that "Religion is good because it can make you do good things, believing they are good"?

That the existence of evil, and an omnibenevolent God are not contradictions?

Please address my explanation of how morality is subjective using the example of convergent evolution.

And then answer the question posed to you about how one would not arrive at the same conclusion on the moral quandary your proposed if morality is subjective.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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26-05-2015, 05:21 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:13 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Either you didn't read my explanation, or you didn't understand it.

Your views and questions often appear a bit more cryptic to me than others.

I assure you they are very straightforward.

Morality is a behavior that is acquired in a population as any other trait is, through evolution.

And like any other trait or adaptation, it may arise more than once in a population. Not because of an absolute control that it must be so, but as a result of the similar constraints placed upon different populations.

Hence the comparison with convergent evolution where different species will arrive at the same adaptation (or type of adaptation) as a result of similar selection pressures. In this case, it is different human civilizations which occupy the same niche but are isolated from one another and then arrive at similar customs and morals.

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26-05-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please address my explanation of how morality is subjective using the example of convergent evolution.

When you appeal to convergent evolution, it doesn't seem that your using it in reference to biology. In relationship to biological adaptations resulting from ecological niches. But rather to same vague notion of cultural evolution, that supposedly works the same way, developing from non-ecological niches?

You are speaking of culture, not biology here correct?

I was hoping you can clarify this before I can even think of what it is your asking.
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26-05-2015, 05:24 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please address my explanation of how morality is subjective using the example of convergent evolution.

When you appeal to convergent evolution, it doesn't seem that your using it in reference to biology. In relationship to biological adaptations resulting from ecological niches. But rather to same vague notion of cultural evolution, that supposedly works the same way, developing from non-ecological niches?

You are speaking of culture, not biology here correct?

It's not an appeal to convergent evolution, convergent evolution is a process whereby two different populations arrive at similar adaptations.

Culture (a type of behavior) is a biological trait. For instance, know any minerals with culture?

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26-05-2015, 05:25 PM
Atheism and morality
I'm not asking anything. I'm explaining how morality is subjective.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 05:26 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Who said you wouldn't?

He is asking why would you not come to the same conclusion if morality were subjective?

This is the question I asked

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26-05-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:21 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I assure you they are very straightforward.

Morality is a behavior that is acquired in a population as any other trait is, through evolution.

You're equivocating a bit here. Are you claiming that non-biological cultural traits, and biological traits develop and spread the same way? Are you peddling memetics here or something?
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