Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 05:38 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:25 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So is stealing just plain wrong, or is it just that you would not alternatively want your stuff taken?

In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.

My question applies to this response

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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26-05-2015, 05:42 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's assigned by our nature. I was reading about the slender man attempted murder, in which one of the girls accused of the crime said, "The bad part of me wanted her to die; the good part of me wanted her to live.”'. She stabbed the victim several times of course, but even she recognizes some distinction, a good part that wanted her victim to live, and a bad part of her that wanted her victim to die. Even she seems to recognize her failure to act in accordance with that good part.

Her recognition here likely has nothing to do with her upbringing, or social and culturally induced expectations, this perception seems far more primordial than that, implicit in her being. Like a watch knowing what it means to be a good watch, that it ought to be telling time, but not. And that particular recognition is not one granted to the watch by the wearer of the watch, but within the very nature of being a watch.

I believe that the process of natural selection has hard-wired us for altruistic tendencies, which explains the urge to be kind and helpful towards others.

Dawkins explains it nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8C-ntwUpzM
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26-05-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't think behaviors are related to your genetics?

(I'll give you a hint, Dawkins is correct)

Dawkins Memetic's is nothing other than pseudo-science. I don't even think he puts as much stock in it as you. You must imagine him as the sort of the Darwin of culture here?

And again, your equivocating here. Culture is not something reduced to behavior. Nor is it transmitted through genes. As if I were to take a baby born in some other culture, and raise him in a place with an entirely different culture, he'd up expressing the cultural views of his ancestors, rather than his new found communities.
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26-05-2015, 05:48 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't think behaviors are related to your genetics?

(I'll give you a hint, Dawkins is correct)

Dawkins Memetic's is nothing other than pseudo-science. I don't even think he puts as much stock in it as you. You must imagine him as the sort of the Darwin of culture here?

And again, your equivocating here. Culture is not something reduced to behavior. Nor is it transmitted through genes. As if I were to take a baby born in some other culture, and raise him in a place with an entirely different culture, he'd up expressing the cultural views of his ancestors, rather than his new found communities.

In order to preserve your view, you reject the notion that culture is a behavior and that behaviors are inherited traits?

You can call it pseudo-science if you want, but you are completely incorrect. Unless you've got something to back up your assertions? Because I've got...evolutionary biology.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In recognition that I don't like my stuff stolen, I can recognize that it would be wrong to steal someone else's stuff. Not because I'm afraid that if I steal the other persons stuff that he'll one day retaliate and steal my stuff (because there can be scenarios in which this is quite unlikely to happen), but in recognition that I shouldn't do to him, what I would not want done to myself, a cognition brought along by what we might call "empathy.

My question applies to this response


I think people who believe morality is subjective can recognize this as well. As far as how they reconcile this with moral relativism, you'd have to ask them.
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26-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Atheism and morality
Not everything is transmitted through genes in the same way that your hair color is. For instance, do you think there is a gene for making nests?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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26-05-2015, 05:50 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  My question applies to this response


I think people who believe morality is subjective can recognize this as well. As far as how they reconcile this with moral relativism, you'd have to ask them.

So, you admit that morals are not objective?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 05:51 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:42 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's assigned by our nature. I was reading about the slender man attempted murder, in which one of the girls accused of the crime said, "The bad part of me wanted her to die; the good part of me wanted her to live.”'. She stabbed the victim several times of course, but even she recognizes some distinction, a good part that wanted her victim to live, and a bad part of her that wanted her victim to die. Even she seems to recognize her failure to act in accordance with that good part.

Her recognition here likely has nothing to do with her upbringing, or social and culturally induced expectations, this perception seems far more primordial than that, implicit in her being. Like a watch knowing what it means to be a good watch, that it ought to be telling time, but not. And that particular recognition is not one granted to the watch by the wearer of the watch, but within the very nature of being a watch.

I believe that the process of natural selection has hard-wired us for altruistic tendencies, which explains the urge to be kind and helpful towards others.

Dawkins explains it nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8C-ntwUpzM

And it's these altruistic tendencies that lead the child who stabbed the other one, to see a good and bad part of her? It's these tendencies that give rise to many of our perceptions of good and bad, right and wrong?
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26-05-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 05:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's funny is how you put this parameter around concern for others, calling it fuzzy feelings, ideals and dream, while at the same time articulating a concern for your family, lol.
Is it surprising to you that I value my own family more than I do strangers?
I also value my friends more that strangers and generally I am more careful regarding my interactions with acquaintances rather than my interactions with strangers.
It is easy to find another stranger, it is difficult to find another wife, it is difficult to raise another 6 year old etc. I rely upon my family more than I do strangers. I have an alliance with my family, we work together in many ways to navigate our way within society. I have little to no alliance with strangers.
(26-05-2015 05:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What if we replaced the others in the scenario with your family. And the only person standing to benefit by your selfish act is yourself, and the only people punished for it, is your family. You're not acting selfishly here, but in selfless concern for them, why? If not for those warm fuzzy feelings, ideals and dreams? Particularly when you associate these things with those who act in a similar way to others, as you might your own family?
I almost always act selfishly (the more appropriate question is whether I am acting for short term or long term benefits).
Even within the family, resources are limited and hence there is competition. Competition for which TV channel to watch, competition for the piano, competition for food, competition for my time, competition for attention, competition for what activities to do in the week-end, competition for funds...
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26-05-2015, 05:58 PM
Atheism and morality
And it's worth pointing out Tomasia that you've asked for (and been given repeatedly by multiple people) explanations and evidence to backup the assertion that morality is subjective. But you've never demonstrated your assertion that morality is objective.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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