Atheism and morality
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27-05-2015, 06:10 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:37 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  YES

P.S. Even a religious society.

Suppose I was born into a tribe that engages in infanticide of their handicap children. Would I be able to perceive the tribes actions as wrong, on some basis other than social consensus? Like empathy?

Yes. Empathy is an evolved trait (and not just in humans) that underlies morality just as self-interest does.

I would argue that these form an objective basis for morality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-05-2015, 06:11 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:45 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  You have become the most exhausting poster in this forum FFS! The same damn thing over and over, with the same damn answers that you just cannot comprehend. And the inane line of constant questions is desperate and dodgy at best.

Tomasia, I think you should start a new thread and we can talk about fashion---outfits/shoes subjectively Smile I'm up for that Thumbsup

That would be fabulous. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-05-2015, 06:14 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:58 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:49 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  What do you mean by "What do you mean by some people can see outside?"?

Ah for crying out loud, how many pages in this and other threads?

It's simple:

We are born with

Instinct for self preservation

instinct for preservation of the species

empathy

We are social animals.

That is all you need to know to understand what people will consider moral or ethical or right or proper within the construct of their society.

Deviations from this are evolutionary differences in the endowment with above traits.

I don't think there is any instinct for the preservation of the species.
There certainly seems to be strong attachment to kinship, but it doesn't appear to go beyond close kin.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-05-2015, 06:14 AM
Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 05:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't what you're saying with the golden rule, because you're implying the golden rule exists before human society develops it. As you've been told before, you have cart firmly in front of the horse.

Cultures and morals are behaviors of complex social beings.

Of course I never tried to argue that the golden rule existed prior to human society.

But I am curious as to when you think it developed? Do you think it only came into existence around the time it was articulated in a variety of religious text? That each culture needed a sort of cultural niche, to develop it?

Asking "when" it developed is kind of a nonsensical question. It's like asking "when did the leg develop?" The ancestral morphology (a lobe-fin) gave rise to the limb that would ultimately be adapted into a leg.

Morals (as altruistic behaviors) existed before societies did. Societies adapted these behaviors into rules and laws and morals.

Another biological example would be the wing. The ancestral trait that gave rise to the wing existed in the insects before they developed a flight wing, and in the theropods before they developed a flight wing. The "when" places a value on the specific timing while ignoring that these types of adaptations are gradational.

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27-05-2015, 06:15 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:04 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 05:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Learned" in that it is inherited from the parents but not in the same way that a morphological trait is. Behaviors aren't quite inherited the same way genotypes and phenotypes are.

You're only fooling one person.....you'll find him in the mirror. Nesting, for at least some animals, is in the DNA. Read the article again.

These are your words, "Nesting isn't genetic. It's a learned trait," own them.

This is the problem I have with Bearded Guy he equivocates all over the place, epigenetic/memetics, biological convergence/cultural convergence, ecological niches/cultural niches, biological/cultural evolution, beliefs=behavior, without even being cognizant of the fact that he's doing this. He uses the same terms in variety of different context, without even acknowledging the shifts in meaning, and expecting those who recognize his muddled thinking, to follow along.

It all get's tiring after awhile.
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27-05-2015, 06:16 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 05:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 07:11 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  You missed the point. It makes the two equally subjective. The murder is required for both examples to have the same relevancy to the discussion.

An honor killing is in no way comparable to one's taste in shoes. The motive behind the killing is what should be discussed, and does not related to fashion unless the end action is comparable.

Murder is not required in both examples. Anymore so than yelp reviews are required to make fashion faux pax, and restaurant faux pax equivalent. Murder is just another way of writing a one star yelp review. A means of expressing our anger and frustration with a particular business or person.

When Charlie Hebdo drew offensive pictures of Muhammed as form of creative expression, the attackers expressed themselves creatively as well, in act of performance art. Their rifles serving as paint brushes, and the blood of their victims as their paint.

The only reason you said murder is a requirement, is because murder produces a far more visceral feeling in you, than a mere fashion faux pax. But they're all just a matter of discomforting feelings, some more intense than others, and some less intense.

But now you're not comparing the same things as in the original scenario. Are we comparing the faux pax itself against murder, or the yelp review about it?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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27-05-2015, 06:18 AM
Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:04 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  You're only fooling one person.....you'll find him in the mirror. Nesting, for at least some animals, is in the DNA. Read the article again.

These are your words, "Nesting isn't genetic. It's a learned trait," own them.

This is the problem I have with Bearded Guy he equivocates all over the place, epigenetic/memetics, biological convergence/cultural convergence, ecological niches/cultural niches, biological/cultural evolution, beliefs=behavior, without even being cognizant of the fact that he's doing this. He uses the same terms in variety of different context, without even acknowledging the shifts in meaning, and expecting those who recognize his muddled thinking, to follow along.

It all get's tiring after awhile.

I'm sorry you don't like science and reality and would instead prefer magic and fantasy.

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27-05-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Asking "when" it developed is kind of a nonsensical question. It's like asking "when did the leg develop?" The ancestral morphology (a lobe-fin) gave rise to the limb that would ultimately be adapted into a leg.

Morals (as altruistic behaviors) existed before societies did. Societies adapted these behaviors into rules and laws and morals.

So there's Morals as altruistic behaviors, and Morals as non-altruistic behaviors?

The altruistic ones existed prior to societies, while that non-altruistic ones only came into existence after societies emerged?

Would this be an accurate assessment of your views here?
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27-05-2015, 06:19 AM
Atheism and morality
If you'd just demonstrate that morality is objective, we could be done with this whole thing. I'll wait Drinking Beverage

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27-05-2015, 06:21 AM
Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Asking "when" it developed is kind of a nonsensical question. It's like asking "when did the leg develop?" The ancestral morphology (a lobe-fin) gave rise to the limb that would ultimately be adapted into a leg.

Morals (as altruistic behaviors) existed before societies did. Societies adapted these behaviors into rules and laws and morals.

So there's Morals as altruistic behaviors, and Morals as non-altruistic behaviors?

The altruistic ones existed prior to societies, while that non-altruistic ones only came into existence after societies emerged?

Would this be an accurate assessment of your views here?

No. I don't even know how you've twisted what I said into that.

Morals are examples of altruistic behaviors. Just like a leg is an example of a limb. Limbs predate legs. Altruism (and behaviors associated with it) precede morals.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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