Atheism and morality
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27-05-2015, 06:40 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't even seem to understand that something like "the golden rule" is moral relativism and subjectivity at work. The golden rule quite literally is about not doing to others what you'd not want done to you. It's relative to YOU and YOUR values, which are subjective. Drinking Beverage


So when a typical person, recognizes that he wouldn't like to be stolen from, that it would be wrong to steal from others, does he percieve this wrong as "subjective", or does he see it along the lines of objective, as a sort of obligation, and duty, even if this perception is just an illusion?
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27-05-2015, 06:43 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't even seem to understand that something like "the golden rule" is moral relativism and subjectivity at work. The golden rule quite literally is about not doing to others what you'd not want done to you. It's relative to YOU and YOUR values, which are subjective. Drinking Beverage


So when a typical person, recognizes that he wouldn't like to be stolen from, that it would be wrong to steal from others, does he percieve this wrong as "subjective", or does he see it along the lines of objective, as a sort of obligation, and duty, even if this perception is just an illusion?

Subjective. If enough people come to the same conclusion, it might appear as though it is objective, but that is the illusion (just like enough people believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe).

You keep spinning around with the same spiel, and people keep rebutting it. Why are you asking questions if you don't want answers? What is your endgame, because I don't believe your bullshit answer that you are just doing it to learn, because you aren't learning.

You ever going to demonstrate morality is objective?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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27-05-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You don't even seem to understand that something like "the golden rule" is moral relativism and subjectivity at work. The golden rule quite literally is about not doing to others what you'd not want done to you. It's relative to YOU and YOUR values, which are subjective. Drinking Beverage


So when a typical person, recognizes that he wouldn't like to be stolen from, that it would be wrong to steal from others, does he percieve this wrong as "subjective", or does he see it along the lines of objective, as a sort of obligation, and duty, even if this perception is just an illusion?

Well if this typical person lives in a culture where nearly everyone raises and teaches their youth rules in the concept of "right" and "wrong" then it's nearly impossible for them at that young age to not form it being wrong. Though plenty of people after some time, typically around teenager years for some, can come to perceive that as a misguided concept. Why you constantly jump to still keep using these terms and throwing out the term illusion I'm never getting.

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27-05-2015, 06:48 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:43 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Subjective. If enough people come to the same conclusion, it might appear as though it is objective, but that is the illusion (just like enough people believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe).


No this doesn't seem to be the case all. The supposed illusion of objectivity doesn't arise only after enough people agree with you, that illusions exists as early as the individual recognition.
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27-05-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:43 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Subjective. If enough people come to the same conclusion, it might appear as though it is objective, but that is the illusion (just like enough people believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe).


No this doesn't seem to be the case all. The supposed illusion of objectivity doesn't arise only after enough people agree with you, that illusions exists as early as the individual recognition.

Please demonstrate that the objectivity of "right" and "wrong" exists outside of the consensus of societies.

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27-05-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. And you seemed determined to plug your ears and scream out your own "facts" about the reality you want to live in.

When you demonstrate that morality is objective, I'll be ready to listen. But if all you're going to do is continue to throw the same temper tantrum of repeating the same moronic arguments over and over, what is the point?

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27-05-2015, 06:52 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No this doesn't seem to be the case all. The supposed illusion of objectivity doesn't arise only after enough people agree with you, that illusions exists as early as the individual recognition.

Please demonstrate that the objectivity of "right" and "wrong" exists outside of the consensus of societies.

I should say, outside of biology. Demonstrate that "right" and "wrong" exist outside of biology such that "right" and "wrong" are objective truths about the nature of reality.

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27-05-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 07:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, we know that memories and experiences, do affect our genetics.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...2212003028

They affect gene expression, not the genes themselves. Hence, they are not directly heritable.

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27-05-2015, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2015 07:02 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please demonstrate that the objectivity of "right" and "wrong" exists outside of the consensus of societies.

You claimed that the illusion of objectivity only arises after a consensus has formed, that individual recognition is seen as subjective. Please demonstrate that.

When I see something as wrong, even among my own community and culture, I don't recognize it as subjective, the perception is at very least illusory objective. And judging that I don't think this is unique to me, and seems to be what I can from seeing other peoples perception, I believe this to be common. There seem be no particularly path in which one transitions from a subjective perception to an illusory objective one.
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27-05-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 07:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 07:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  [quote='
I don't deride. I don't make a derogatory judgement. If you don't understand the difference between a father looking out for his own dependent 6 year old in comparison to a stranger looking out for an independent adult then perhaps you might be happy living in a Nanny state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_state.

I'm not sure why you use family to be exclusive to your six year old children, and strangers to be exclusively adults? Your family could just as well be all independent adults and the strangers could just as well be all 6 year children.

You need to study up on evolution. Google "kin selection". Drinking Beverage

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