Atheism and morality
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27-05-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 07:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, we know that memories and experiences, do affect our genetics.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...2212003028

They affect gene expression, not the genes themselves. Hence, they are not directly heritable.

Maybe. But I'd think gene expressions could be also be inherited since they are gene-dependent.

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27-05-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please demonstrate that the objectivity of "right" and "wrong" exists outside of the consensus of societies.

You claimed that the illusion of objectivity only arises after a consensus has formed, that individual recognition is seen as subjective. Please demonstrate that.

When I see something as wrong, even among my own community and culture, I don't recognize it as subjective, the perception is at very least illusory objective. And judging that I don't think this is unique to me, and seems to be what I can from seeing other peoples perception, I believe this to be common. There seen be no particularly path in which one transitions from a subjective perception to an illusory objective one.

I gave you two examples, Geocentrism and a Flat Earth.

It doesn't matter if you don't see it is as subjective. You live in a society that has placed a formal moral value on it, but that no more makes it objectively moral than a diamond is objectively valuable.

When you demonstrate that "right" and "wrong" exist outside of biology as truths about reality, and demonstrate that morality is objective, I'll continue to listen. Repeating the same old drivel, is getting tiring.

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27-05-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please demonstrate that the objectivity of "right" and "wrong" exists outside of the consensus of societies.

You claimed that the illusion of objectivity only arises after a consensus has formed, that individual recognition is seen as subjective. Please demonstrate that.

When I see something as wrong, even among my own community and culture, I don't recognize it as subjective, the perception is at very least illusory objective. And judging that I don't think this is unique to me, and seems to be what I can from seeing other peoples perception, I believe this to be common. There seem be no particularly path in which one transitions from a subjective perception to an illusory objective one.

I don't see the value in this tale of, well when I see something is wrong I see it as objective.. well duh, you believe morality actually is objective so why wouldn't you? And the majority of religious people seem to and the majority of the world is religious so of course that would to be common.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-05-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 06:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 07:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not sure why you use family to be exclusive to your six year old children, and strangers to be exclusively adults? Your family could just as well be all independent adults and the strangers could just as well be all 6 year children.

You need to study up on evolution. Google "kin selection". Drinking Beverage

If Stevel wants to appeal to kin selection, he's more than welcome to. But I doubt he would.
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27-05-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 07:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't see the value in this tale of, well when I see something is wrong I see it as objective.. well duh, you believe morality actually is objective so why wouldn't you? And the majority of religious people seem to and the majority of the world is religious so of course that would to be common.

So you believe this illusory perception of objectivity, is product of being religious? Therefore explaining it's commonality?
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27-05-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 07:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't see the value in this tale of, well when I see something is wrong I see it as objective.. well duh, you believe morality actually is objective so why wouldn't you? And the majority of religious people seem to and the majority of the world is religious so of course that would to be common.

So you believe this illusory perception of objectivity, is product of being religious? Therefore explaining it's commonality.

He is saying that your bias leads you to forming a conclusion regardless of the truth.

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27-05-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 07:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When you demonstrate that "right" and "wrong" exist outside of biology as truths about reality, and demonstrate that morality is objective, I'll continue to listen. Repeating the same old drivel, is getting tiring.


I can't demonstrate that to you, the closest we will likely ever get is between the bridge between illusory and real. The more interesting question for me, is what's the root of illusory perception, is it sort of a product of being a remember of a religious society and culture (as clydelee seems to suggest), or more primordial than that, like we might say of the golden rule.
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27-05-2015, 07:14 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 07:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 07:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't see the value in this tale of, well when I see something is wrong I see it as objective.. well duh, you believe morality actually is objective so why wouldn't you? And the majority of religious people seem to and the majority of the world is religious so of course that would to be common.

So you believe this illusory perception of objectivity, is product of being religious? Therefore explaining it's commonality.

Is everything people think that is wrong an illusion? Is santa claus an illusion? Is climate change denial a illusion? is an overly massive amount of kids thinking they will grow up to be an astronaut an illusion? It's just things people are functionally told to believe in a lot.

Like i said in a post just moments ago, it's not a matter of religious really, it's just that the vast majority of people in western cultures raise children based on teaching, RIGHT and WRONG. Because it's easy and functional. Do you think it's objectively wrong for a 3 year old to eat dirt? Not likely, it's just gross and on an off chance harmful to his health with some weird bugs or germs in there, so most parents would tell the kid it's wrong to eat dirt. You are assisting a thought process of right and wrong by this.

Why you are hung up on the term illusion is still not being answered.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-05-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(27-05-2015 07:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 07:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When you demonstrate that "right" and "wrong" exist outside of biology as truths about reality, and demonstrate that morality is objective, I'll continue to listen. Repeating the same old drivel, is getting tiring.


I can't demonstrate that to you, the closest we will likely ever get is between the bridge between illusory and real. The more interesting question for me, is what's the root of illusory perception, is it sort of a product of being a remember of a religious society and culture (as clydelee seems to suggest), or more primordial than that, like we might say of the golden rule.

You can't demonstrate it, because it isn't true.

For instance, the golden rule didn't exist before people invented it. Behaviors preceded it.

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27-05-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
The only "illusion" I see is the religious belief in an objective morality that must be assumed on faith to be true. Why would any rational, logical, or thinking person ever come to that conclusion independent of believing it for the sake of believing it on faith?

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