Atheism and the afterlife.
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09-09-2012, 09:06 PM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(09-09-2012 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  While I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Atheists do not believe in an afterlife, being an Atheist does not contradict the idea of an afterlife. For example, I can be an Atheist who believes that there is something, undetected by science (so far), that is me. Not my body, or mind, or memories, but my personality. Of course I am attempting to describe a soul, or spirit. While there is no scientific proof of a soul, it has not, and perhaps can not be disproved, however unlikely YOU believe it is (Please save the "Like God" comparisons). While I am compelled to believe that once our brains quit, then that's just it, I have toyed with the idea of reincarnation; daydreamed would perhaps be more accurate. It is only natural after all, who doesn't want to exist forever? Or at least longer than the short spec of time that we have. Even if you believe in infinite parallel universes the "real you" will cease to be upon death. Of coarse there are other, simpler concepts of life after death such as Gaea recycling you, or even your atoms being used over and over again (which is scientific fact), but that is not the type of afterlife I wished to address.

Thoughts? Do any of the Atheists here ascribe to the idea of a afterlife?
Well, I do. I wrote about it multiple times, for example here. And then here.

The following is a description of a philosophy, not a claim.
This is a physical, material concept of the existence of many forms and degrees of subtle matter, that we are life forms consisting of multiple layers - or better said, full and permeating spheres of different material density, each "sphere" bigger and subtler than the other, but also more resilient and long-lived, less prone to entropy. Each "sphere" (more like an oval actually) is a body of its own, semi-independent, but together they form a modular personality that we have, they contribute to the shades of our consciousness, though no more than the biologic brain can express.
As long as we are alive, the biologic brain is the final bottleneck of consciousness, until death allows us to retreat to a higher body and greater clarity and have a generally pleasant period of afterlife.

The biologic man or woman is then a kernel of flesh that was precipitated inside the higher bodies, offered as an opportunity and instrument to act in the dense-material world. As such it is a very important instrument. But the actual consciousness comes from the higher bodies, so when the biologic body dies, it is not the end. There is a couple more vehicles that can dissolve too, without fatal consequences. Of course, growing the new body or bodies for the purpose of reincarnation results in blank brain, wiped memories. Except perhaps some anomalies that we read about in news, children remembering past lives or speaking fluently a language they didn't learn. Perhaps all life knowledge is saved, only we can't get to it yet. There must be something that gets transferred from life to life so we don't start as tabula rasa, perhaps a shade of skills, talents and the quality of a body itself - or a better experience how to build it. How to build a set of bodies that communicate together really well and better obey a hierarchic order, allowing the person to stream inspirative ideas "from above" and to make the physical body and emotions submit to reason, for example. That might be a thing that distinguishes an "old soul" and a genius since childhood from the average.

Such is the working theory I use. I find it very useful to deal with the experience I have. I find it very "realistic", as we know, our dense matter is just a small part of the various exotic invisible stuffs that comprise the universe. It might as well be the case, that in most of reality there is no death or even sleep, that death is a biologic phenomenon.
Very probably, there is no time either as we know it, our biologic brain determines our perception of time. I'd say in subtle worlds the time is more relative, there is no rule that 1 hour there should last 1 hour here, only the order of events is given. There are some hints it is actually stranger than that, that all past events exist simultaneously and some near future events perhaps too - only their order of manifestation is not given yet, that is determined by the present moment. Like braiding the strands together. It is an occult rule, that events precipitate from above, from the worlds of causes, to this world of outwardly events and consequences. But we get to choose when, how and if.

The implications of this philosophy are countless, so I just believe those I have experience with and those logically necessary from the experience. Of course, I don't remember any past lives, but I've seen enough indirect signs to be very certain that this is basically how it works.
Of course, I'm not eager to hurry there. Getting born and growing up was a pain in the ass and I have no intention of repeating that ordeal any time soon! I want to stay healthy and live long. And have fun in life when I finally get it going in the right direction, just like all other atheists.

You might be a crazy person, I am not sure, but I won't go so far as to say your belief is wrong. I have been an Atheist from about the age of eleven. However, I have had two experiences from my unconsciousness that has led me to question whether I had been here before. These are the closest things I guess I could describe as 'spiritual experiences'. I have convinced myself with 99% certainty that any hopes of life outside of the one I currently know has/will not happened/will happen. I am pretty sure that it is just my wishful thinking, though we humans are pretty good/bad at hoping even when facing pretty daunting odds.
Regardless, I think that <one percent is the coward in me, not wanting to end, and not wanting to face the facts.

Obviously I have put some thought into the idea, and I will share my reason why. Both were VERY vivid, and detailed dreams. I have unusual 'dreams' all the time and always have. I have, from about the age of ten, had a sleep paralysis episodes and had the capability of lucid dreaming fairly often. (I will not go into detail about this right now but I have fully conscious 'dreams' that are very vivid). Two dreams, without my sleep paralysis episodes, were indistinguishable from real life, except I was not me, I was someone else. Both took place years apart (In 'real life), and both in the same geographical region. The first was in Northern Europe, and I was speaking with some hunters in a language I did not know, and had never heard before. In the second dream I was at a train station in Oslo, perhaps turn of the century to the 1940's based on the train design and clothing. The bizarre thing about the second dream is that I had never heard of Oslo (at least at a conscious level) before the dream, and the name was not mentioned in the dream. I just somehow instinctively knew that I was in Oslo, so I woke up and googled the name (though I didn't know how to spell it) and was shocked that such a place existed. No matter your beliefs, you must admit that would at least make you stop and think.

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10-09-2012, 01:44 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 01:56 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 07:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm too fucking tired to bother this time, Lumi.

I just drove 325 miles (523 km) with my ex-wife. While there is no afterlife, there is a hell.
You know what, Chas? I thought specially of you, when I added the sentence on the top, "The following is a description of a philosophy, not a claim."
So it's not a claim and you don't need to respond. Ain't I awesome? Big Grin No, you are. 523 km with an ex-wife, without ... you know, ...an accident. If there really was Heaven, you could claim to go there directly, because you have already gone through purgatory.


(09-09-2012 04:46 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Dear Luminon,
you do what all religious people allways do.(I am not sure, but you sound's like on.)
Hundreds of words to say a simple sentence:

"I'm afraid to die!"

There is no escape, regardless what whe say and do and hope, we all gonne die!
But we have a life, right now and her, lets make the best of it, lets make it remakable, not least for ourselves.

Sure, i'm afraid to die, but if thats the only thought in my mind, my life turned into a nightmare.
Of course I'm afraid to die! There are so many things that would go in vain, I won't give up on them. But I do have strong escapist and mystical tendencies that once endangered my life and I didn't care, so I guess I don't fear death the same way you do, as long as it comes slowly and painlessly.

The difference is, I'm not afraid of non-existence. I have experienced it once during meditation, the vanishment of ego. It was very strange, but it wasn't bad. There was no me, but fortunately there were still the brain cells which preserved the memory. So I know how it is like to not exist. I just don't think this is what happens after death. I have seen and otherwise experienced things that leave me no personal choice other than accept this multi-material existence. So basically I fear death and never ever took the idea of suicide seriously, I won't risk getting scolded by some higher part of myself for quitting the job early, and then being sent back again! Smile

Btw, I'm not theist, only my right brain hemisphere is. The left one is a firm unbeliever in gods and would gladly debate any Christian foolish enough to do start an argument.
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10-09-2012, 03:03 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 09:06 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(09-09-2012 04:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, I do. I wrote about it multiple times, for example here. And then here.

The following is a description of a philosophy, not a claim.
This is a physical, material concept of the existence of many forms and degrees of subtle matter, that we are life forms consisting of multiple layers - or better said, full and permeating spheres of different material density, each "sphere" bigger and subtler than the other, but also more resilient and long-lived, less prone to entropy. Each "sphere" (more like an oval actually) is a body of its own, semi-independent, but together they form a modular personality that we have, they contribute to the shades of our consciousness, though no more than the biologic brain can express.
As long as we are alive, the biologic brain is the final bottleneck of consciousness, until death allows us to retreat to a higher body and greater clarity and have a generally pleasant period of afterlife.

The biologic man or woman is then a kernel of flesh that was precipitated inside the higher bodies, offered as an opportunity and instrument to act in the dense-material world. As such it is a very important instrument. But the actual consciousness comes from the higher bodies, so when the biologic body dies, it is not the end. There is a couple more vehicles that can dissolve too, without fatal consequences. Of course, growing the new body or bodies for the purpose of reincarnation results in blank brain, wiped memories. Except perhaps some anomalies that we read about in news, children remembering past lives or speaking fluently a language they didn't learn. Perhaps all life knowledge is saved, only we can't get to it yet. There must be something that gets transferred from life to life so we don't start as tabula rasa, perhaps a shade of skills, talents and the quality of a body itself - or a better experience how to build it. How to build a set of bodies that communicate together really well and better obey a hierarchic order, allowing the person to stream inspirative ideas "from above" and to make the physical body and emotions submit to reason, for example. That might be a thing that distinguishes an "old soul" and a genius since childhood from the average.

Such is the working theory I use. I find it very useful to deal with the experience I have. I find it very "realistic", as we know, our dense matter is just a small part of the various exotic invisible stuffs that comprise the universe. It might as well be the case, that in most of reality there is no death or even sleep, that death is a biologic phenomenon.
Very probably, there is no time either as we know it, our biologic brain determines our perception of time. I'd say in subtle worlds the time is more relative, there is no rule that 1 hour there should last 1 hour here, only the order of events is given. There are some hints it is actually stranger than that, that all past events exist simultaneously and some near future events perhaps too - only their order of manifestation is not given yet, that is determined by the present moment. Like braiding the strands together. It is an occult rule, that events precipitate from above, from the worlds of causes, to this world of outwardly events and consequences. But we get to choose when, how and if.

The implications of this philosophy are countless, so I just believe those I have experience with and those logically necessary from the experience. Of course, I don't remember any past lives, but I've seen enough indirect signs to be very certain that this is basically how it works.
Of course, I'm not eager to hurry there. Getting born and growing up was a pain in the ass and I have no intention of repeating that ordeal any time soon! I want to stay healthy and live long. And have fun in life when I finally get it going in the right direction, just like all other atheists.

You might be a crazy person, I am not sure, but I won't go so far as to say your belief is wrong. I have been an Atheist from about the age of eleven. However, I have had two experiences from my unconsciousness that has led me to question whether I had been here before. These are the closest things I guess I could describe as 'spiritual experiences'. I have convinced myself with 99% certainty that any hopes of life outside of the one I currently know has/will not happened/will happen. I am pretty sure that it is just my wishful thinking, though we humans are pretty good/bad at hoping even when facing pretty daunting odds.
Regardless, I think that <one percent is the coward in me, not wanting to end, and not wanting to face the facts.

Obviously I have put some thought into the idea, and I will share my reason why. Both were VERY vivid, and detailed dreams. I have unusual 'dreams' all the time and always have. I have, from about the age of ten, had a sleep paralysis episodes and had the capability of lucid dreaming fairly often. (I will not go into detail about this right now but I have fully conscious 'dreams' that are very vivid). Two dreams, without my sleep paralysis episodes, were indistinguishable from real life, except I was not me, I was someone else. Both took place years apart (In 'real life), and both in the same geographical region. The first was in Northern Europe, and I was speaking with some hunters in a language I did not know, and had never heard before. In the second dream I was at a train station in Oslo, perhaps turn of the century to the 1940's based on the train design and clothing. The bizarre thing about the second dream is that I had never heard of Oslo (at least at a conscious level) before the dream, and the name was not mentioned in the dream. I just somehow instinctively knew that I was in Oslo, so I woke up and googled the name (though I didn't know how to spell it) and was shocked that such a place existed. No matter your beliefs, you must admit that would at least make you stop and think.

It did!

I was hit by a truck at 15. Nearly died, and managed to make a full recovery.

After experiencing that I did question the afterlife. I lost my entire life's memories and recovered them slowly after a time. It showed me what nonexistence would be like, and it wasn't that bad.

I wonder why people fear dieing so much?
Personally I just don't want it to hurt.

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10-09-2012, 03:24 AM
 
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
When you die, you no longer have interference from the physical senses of your body, and you come to remember that you are God.

There is only one life; there is only one mind; there is only one thing that truly exists--might as well call it God, at least that's only three letters long.

Think about it like this: The last dream you had that had another person as one of the characters--who was that other person, really? And even more, if say there was a car in it, what really was the substance of that car?

Same thing in this life. You are God, just like everything else. When you die, you wake up and realize it. Just like you realize you are the God of the dream when you wake up from it.
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10-09-2012, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2012 12:30 PM by Marco Krieger.)
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(10-09-2012 01:44 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Btw, I'm not theist, only my right brain hemisphere is. The left one is a firm unbeliever in gods and would gladly debate any Christian foolish enough to do start an argument.

Hihihi... and i am a half-musim, so in restaurant's i order only a half porc-schnitzel!

Dear luminon, there is no difference, because, i dont care about the non-existence.
Meditation is a havy stuff for our brain, you know?
Our brain is build to recive informations, impressions from the outsite world.
Its, naturley, a constant flow of input, so the brain is busy 24 hour a day, even most active in your rem-sleep.
Now you came allong and say to your brain "Lets do some meditation".
And your brain said "Ok, what should i do?"
And you say" Nothing."
And your brain said" WHAT???"
And then you try to blow out the little light insite of your skull, with breadhing technics and deprivation and you shot done all stimulations around you.
Then the magic thing begin, your brain start to communicate...with itself and it tells itself storys, because it is bored to death being in that standby mood.
Your brain is playing tricks on you, and thats where you have your idea of an afterlife from?
I dont want to hurt your feelings, but please take your medication in the way your Doctor told you.
Is it really so hard to stay in reality?
I meen, the reality is not so bad at all.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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10-09-2012, 04:03 PM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(10-09-2012 08:34 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Hihihi... and i am a half-musim, so in restaurant's i order only a half porc-schnitzel!
The brain is a computer. It can run multiple pieces of software. If I need to deal with some strange experiences, I know how to do it and how to sift through answers in certain occult philosophies. Other times I need to deal with various claims and unverified stories which I have no experience with, so I employ the logical software and think critically.
It only sounds unusual, because most people don't encounter enough strange phenomena (or rational thinkers) so that they'd need more than one brain software. For example, Dark Light had only two unique and significant dreams, that's not enough to start learning spiritual disciplines, only to keep a little bit of open mind.

But the different opinions of two hemispheres that's a medical fact, it was measured, like right hemisphere liked a dress and the left one didn't, or (how typical) right hemisphere believed in God and the left one didn't.

(10-09-2012 08:34 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Dear luminon, there is no difference, because, i dont care about the non-existence.
Meditation is a havy stuff for our brain, you know?
Our brain is build to recive informations, impressions from the outsite world.
Its, naturley, a constant flow of input, so the brain is busy 24 hour a day, even most active in your rem-sleep.
Now you came allong and say to your brain "Lets do some meditation".
And your brain said "Ok, what should i do?"
And you say" Nothing."
And your brain said" WHAT???"
And then you try to blow out the little light insite of your skull, with breadhing technics and deprivation and you shot done all stimulations around you.
Then the magic thing begin, your brain start to communicate...with itself and it tells itself storys, because it is bored to death being in that standby mood.
Your brain is playing tricks on you, and thats where you have your idea of an afterlife from?
I dont want to hurt your feelings, but please take your medication in the way your Doctor told you.
Is it really so hard to stay in reality?
I meen, the reality is not so bad at all.
Don't worry, my feelings are only hurt if you assume that I'm stupid, it's the intellectual pride.
The meditation I do is somewhat unusual. If I do it right, the brain slows down its gibbering. There is a deeply peaceful, spacious darkness, without boredom. There is a great clarity of consciousness, a clear sky without thoughts to cloud it. There is a light in the darkness, a faint daylight streaming from above. Then there are states of consciousness that I strive to achieve like other people strive to climb a mountain to experience a sunrise on the top. And that's not all there is. There are experiences that may change you, change your attitude to the world. Religious experiences, only without religion. Just essence of it, without any form.
I won't go into lengthty explanations, but meditation if done right is a mentally and physically beneficial discipline. It's actually good for the brain, the true meditation, not just reverie as most of people do it. A brain telling stories to itself is not a meditating brain.

No, I don't have a doctor yet, although I plan to get one for Asperger syndrome counseling. And yes, it is so hard to stay in reality. People like me are more aware of the inner world than the outer. You think that the cave-dwelling mystics disappeared with 20th century?
I appreciate your concern, but it seems to me that people should get medication only if there is something pathologic about them. What's pathologic about me?
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10-09-2012, 04:13 PM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(10-09-2012 04:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I appreciate your concern, but it seems to me that people should get medication only if there is something pathologic about them. What's pathologic about me?

Nothing, my mistake, you seem to be quite there where you want to be.
Enjoy your stay.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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11-09-2012, 01:56 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 02:00 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(10-09-2012 04:13 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 04:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I appreciate your concern, but it seems to me that people should get medication only if there is something pathologic about them. What's pathologic about me?

Nothing, my mistake, you seem to be quite there where you want to be.
Enjoy your stay.
Spiritually yes, I'm where I want to be. It's good to have one foot firmly set while the other is moving. I'm doing a lot to get my external life in order.
If I do it right, if I strive to do the spiritual disciplines and outer worldly duties, there is a reward. There is an expansion of consciousness, a newly found awareness of things I wasn't aware before, a new way to look at things, a more realistic one. It isn't always pleasant, because when we don't have awareness, we invent lies about ourselves and others, lies in my favor and not in theirs. So I know there's a blind spot that I need to see through, then compose myself from that realization and get back together in some functional way.

If I have any weird claims, that's a completely sensory thing. My senses (and being at a right place and right time) allow me sometimes to observe strange phenomena, but I'm free to analyze them rationally. There is just so many of them, that denial isn't an option. It certainly makes life a bit more interesting. But it can be all explained by existence of multiple subtle levels of matter.
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11-09-2012, 03:25 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(10-09-2012 03:24 AM)Egor Wrote:  When you die, you no longer have interference from the physical senses of your body, and you come to remember that you are God.

There is only one life; there is only one mind; there is only one thing that truly exists--might as well call it God, at least that's only three letters long.

Think about it like this: The last dream you had that had another person as one of the characters--who was that other person, really? And even more, if say there was a car in it, what really was the substance of that car?

Same thing in this life. You are God, just like everything else. When you die, you wake up and realize it. Just like you realize you are the God of the dream when you wake up from it.

Well Egor at least you are not a christian. Thumbsup

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12-09-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 09:06 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You might be a crazy person, I am not sure, but I won't go so far as to say your belief is wrong. I have been an Atheist from about the age of eleven. However, I have had two experiences from my unconsciousness that has led me to question whether I had been here before. These are the closest things I guess I could describe as 'spiritual experiences'. I have convinced myself with 99% certainty that any hopes of life outside of the one I currently know has/will not happened/will happen. I am pretty sure that it is just my wishful thinking, though we humans are pretty good/bad at hoping even when facing pretty daunting odds.
Regardless, I think that <one percent is the coward in me, not wanting to end, and not wanting to face the facts.
I can't exclude the possibility that I'm crazy, but I can exclude things like schizophrenia. I always had a different perception of the world, but it's a sensory thing, not with judgement.

So why did you convince yourself with 99% certainity that another try at life will not happen? Is the survival after death so tempting, that you'd better don't get your hopes up? Or you do it in defiance of the religious agenda? Or allegiance to skepticism and contemporary science? How many more experiences you need to increase the probability a few more %?

And what about the odds? The universe is mostly made of invisible, intangible exotic materials and energies. Unless they're completely inert, I think odds are pretty good there's some within us too, it's the way we evolved. Since Wilhelm Reich (and a few other people) did his experiments and my perception confirms it, I'm fairly confident. But nope, all these clever scientists will search for exotic matter in the most empty and lifeless places, if possible in another galaxy.

(09-09-2012 09:06 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Obviously I have put some thought into the idea, and I will share my reason why. Both were VERY vivid, and detailed dreams. I have unusual 'dreams' all the time and always have. I have, from about the age of ten, had a sleep paralysis episodes and had the capability of lucid dreaming fairly often. (I will not go into detail about this right now but I have fully conscious 'dreams' that are very vivid). Two dreams, without my sleep paralysis episodes, were indistinguishable from real life, except I was not me, I was someone else. Both took place years apart (In 'real life), and both in the same geographical region. The first was in Northern Europe, and I was speaking with some hunters in a language I did not know, and had never heard before. In the second dream I was at a train station in Oslo, perhaps turn of the century to the 1940's based on the train design and clothing. The bizarre thing about the second dream is that I had never heard of Oslo (at least at a conscious level) before the dream, and the name was not mentioned in the dream. I just somehow instinctively knew that I was in Oslo, so I woke up and googled the name (though I didn't know how to spell it) and was shocked that such a place existed. No matter your beliefs, you must admit that would at least make you stop and think.
All right, these dreams are quite impressive. Congratulations! I never had such a vivid dream, it's not like they occur randomly in population. I know the subjectively meaningful randomness of dreams and the usual dream routines, even the rare symbolic dream visions, but nothing like that.
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