Atheism and the afterlife.
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12-09-2012, 10:10 PM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(12-09-2012 07:24 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  Now, I don't believe in a god, but I ask myself the question, "Why does the universe exist?" I get how the current universe started - expansion from a singularity - but where did the singularity come from? Something having always existed is impossible to comprehend, god or no god.

So while I do not believe in an afterlife, I don't have an explanation for the universe, and somehow that gives me comfort.

I think the reason people find this hard to comprehend, is because there is a gaping understanding in science in this field as far as how we understand it in school. To the other side of it, we are really just now making progress as a whole throughout the world of cosmology where everything from new particles to new ideas are being presented that really changed the way we saw it before.

I think the largest thing is that people have this preconceived idea that "it came from nothing" and people get hung up on this. There is a portion of particles responsible for the singularity, although since at that point in time it was not technically "mass" people see it as "nothing" if that makes sense.

Within the theory of the big bang, ther are sections, parts of it that happened SO FAST that we measure them in millions or trillionths of a second, this is known as "planck" time (good read up on wikipedia about it. The other thing that people seem to fundamentally not understand is that the name of the big "bang" was not a "bang", more accurately it should have been called "The big expansion" because it wasn't an explosion, not in the sense that we understand them.

It can be sort of explained in a nutshell like this:

Quantum level randomness/fun time, electromagnetism happens, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force happens, gravity happens.

Gravitational force begins separation from other forces, elementary particles are born.

The inflation of "the big bang" starts to happen, VERY quickly. This is from the separation of strong nuclear force. Think of something ridiculously hot and compressed, expanding. Except imagine something so dense and so ridiculous it's more dense than anything imaginable heating up something hotter than you could also imagine. When things get hot, they tend to expand. So imagine elementary forces suddenly happening, things separating, mass becoming mass and a gigantic expansion happening extremely quickly.

There are a lot of phases of the big bang. I think people have this idea that this thing just "happened" and it's incomprehensible because to them it sounds like some giant explosion out in space "just happened" and it makes them go "Well that's just silly! Obviously some dude in the sky made it happen instead."

But if you understand that the idea of quantum theory, quantum mechanics allow for various things to happen on a level where there are things with no mass, particles we have "some" understanding of (but not entirely yet) you can understand that there is the ability for things to happen on a scale we didn't understand before. The idea is essentially that this singularity happened in portions. You have all the fundamental forces that we know about today happening, and many other factors due to heat and expansion and separation becoming possible during these moments.

If you took the big bang away, if you took our universe away, things would still be happening at these levels. There would still be quantum level things happening, a realm of particles and theoretical physics still happening and they would be out and around doing their things.

So ... when people say "god made it" where did god come from?

Something more fun to propose to them, "If god was always just there... why would god create things at the quantum level if he had no intention of making the big bang?"

Some fun reading material for you:

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topi...eline.html

One of my favorite videos that explains things quite beautifully


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13-09-2012, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2012 06:18 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(12-09-2012 03:26 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Studies have shown that 9/10 of your posts are complete woo. You know why that is? Because they are. Drinking Beverage

You do know that Wilhelm Reich practiced pseudo-science and that his experiments have been refuted, right?
Not really, Einstein repeated one successfully, but thought of an alternate explanation. He didn't bother to repeat it with am improved version sent by Reich. But there is an ongoing research you might want to check out. Including the experiment you mean, it's the point #5.
It's not rocket science, a lot of that research is simply measuring physical effects that occur within the accumulator (or in sometimes in vacuum of space or atmosphere) or occur differently there. You have a lot of catching up to do, if you wish to criticize, you should first get familiar with responses to criticism, if your concerns aren't already addressed there.

(12-09-2012 04:33 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Thats some kind strange. What is he talking about exotic material?
There are 118 elementes known to exist.
They were build in supernovae all over the universe.
Thats measurable with the photo-spectral-analyses.
There are no exotic materials, not in a million years.
Try reality, its fun.
I mean the same elements, only probably made of supersymmetric versions of our good old particles. My perception lifts the veil a little bit, enought to not be content with an incomplete part of material reality.
I am fairly confident that this material life is not all material life there is, that the material universe is dualistic in nature, maybe even severalistic. Subtler life forms serve as a scaffold for coarser matter to grow in, but when the coarser living counterpart dies, the subtler one will live for a while. Perhaps before giving way to its even subtler and more permanent counterpart.

As in the video Logisch posted, other universes are not unlikely. But I would not go as far as separate bubbles of space with different laws of physics. As far as I can tell, our universe consists of full spheres of matter, permeating and overreaching each other spatially, but separated qualitatively, like geosphere, atmosphere and magnetosphere. They are held together by gravity and perhaps interacting microscopically in other ways, with the qualitatively closest particles. This permeative layering is found everywhere, in our bodies, planets and even galaxies. But perhaps every particle in existence is a precipitation of particles of a higher quantum state, that seem to appear and disappear from vacuum.
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13-09-2012, 06:23 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  ...however unlikely YOU believe it is.

Doesn't this ^

(09-09-2012 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Thoughts? Do any of the Atheists here ascribe to the idea of a afterlife?

contradict this ^ ?

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13-09-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(13-09-2012 06:12 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Not really, Einstein repeated one successfully, but thought of an alternate explanation. He didn't bother to repeat it with am improved version sent by Reich. But there is an ongoing research you might want to check out. Including the experiment you mean, it's the point #5.
It's not rocket science, a lot of that research is simply measuring physical effects that occur within the accumulator (or in sometimes in vacuum of space or atmosphere) or occur differently there. You have a lot of catching up to do, if you wish to criticize, you should first get familiar with responses to criticism, if your concerns aren't already addressed there.
Don't even bother if you're not able to provide a peer-reviewed source for this 'theory'.

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13-09-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(13-09-2012 06:12 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 03:26 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Studies have shown that 9/10 of your posts are complete woo. You know why that is? Because they are. Drinking Beverage

You do know that Wilhelm Reich practiced pseudo-science and that his experiments have been refuted, right?
Not really, Einstein repeated one successfully, but thought of an alternate explanation. He didn't bother to repeat it with am improved version sent by Reich. But there is an ongoing research you might want to check out. Including the experiment you mean, it's the point #5.
It's not rocket science, a lot of that research is simply measuring physical effects that occur within the accumulator (or in sometimes in vacuum of space or atmosphere) or occur differently there. You have a lot of catching up to do, if you wish to criticize, you should first get familiar with responses to criticism, if your concerns aren't already addressed there.

(12-09-2012 04:33 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Thats some kind strange. What is he talking about exotic material?
There are 118 elementes known to exist.
They were build in supernovae all over the universe.
Thats measurable with the photo-spectral-analyses.
There are no exotic materials, not in a million years.
Try reality, its fun.
I mean the same elements, only probably made of supersymmetric versions of our good old particles. My perception lifts the veil a little bit, enought to not be content with an incomplete part of material reality.
I am fairly confident that this material life is not all material life there is, that the material universe is dualistic in nature, maybe even severalistic. Subtler life forms serve as a scaffold for coarser matter to grow in, but when the coarser living counterpart dies, the subtler one will live for a while. Perhaps before giving way to its even subtler and more permanent counterpart.

As in the video Logisch posted, other universes are not unlikely. But I would not go as far as separate bubbles of space with different laws of physics. As far as I can tell, our universe consists of full spheres of matter, permeating and overreaching each other spatially, but separated qualitatively, like geosphere, atmosphere and magnetosphere. They are held together by gravity and perhaps interacting microscopically in other ways, with the qualitatively closest particles. This permeative layering is found everywhere, in our bodies, planets and even galaxies. But perhaps every particle in existence is a precipitation of particles of a higher quantum state, that seem to appear and disappear from vacuum.

Ok, a few question, if you dont mind?
What are you smoking?
And where can i get it?

Supersymmetric partikles, what should they be doing in you point of view ( the word view is hart to write if you have read the text) ?
This permeative layering, have you some souces to read about it or have made the stuff in your own laboratorie.
I have, sincerely, tryed to read your text twice, but it cracks my skull.

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13-09-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(12-09-2012 07:24 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  Now, I don't believe in a god, but I ask myself the question, "Why does the universe exist?" I get how the current universe started - expansion from a singularity - but where did the singularity come from? Something having always existed is impossible to comprehend, god or no god.

So while I do not believe in an afterlife, I don't have an explanation for the universe, and somehow that gives me comfort.

Don't get too attached the the idea of a singularity; Hawking and Penrose have given it up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-09-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(09-09-2012 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  While I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Atheists do not believe in an afterlife, being an Atheist does not contradict the idea of an afterlife.

It is impossible for the two ideas to coexist if one is relying on rationality and reason.

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13-09-2012, 09:22 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(13-09-2012 07:47 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Don't even bother if you're not able to provide a peer-reviewed source for this 'theory'.
Have you checked the link? There isn't any theory, just me responding to Dark Light.
By the way, the Reich and post-Reichian research stands on its own, regardless of what I say.
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13-09-2012, 09:33 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
(13-09-2012 09:17 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-09-2012 03:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  While I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Atheists do not believe in an afterlife, being an Atheist does not contradict the idea of an afterlife.

It is impossible for the two ideas to coexist if one is relying on rationality and reason.

I disagree. One has to be a dualist (mind/body), but not necessarily a theist or deist.

The rub is that there is no evidence of any mechanism for dualism, therefore the rational conclusion is that it is not the case.


Note: No gods were harmed in the making of this argument.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-09-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Atheism and the afterlife.
It depends on what your view of existence is, and it also depends on what physicists eventually discover to be the true nature of the universe.

Some physicists think there is evidence that the entirety of the information in the universe from all time is stored in a static state, and that our concept of time is a false paradigm. Essentially then, saying you are "dead" would be like saying a song on a record no longer exists just because the needle has gone by, which we know is not true. You're still there, and always will be, but you can only view the part of the record you are written on.
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