Atheism for some?
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28-11-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 06:16 AM)julep Wrote:  Sure, you were an atheist. And sure, now you're a believer. Both positions in your case driven primarily by emotion rather than thought. I'm not going to attack how genuinely you have held your past or present beliefs. I'll leave that kind of nastiness to you.

It's possible to have anger and contempt and other emotional reactions, in addition to intellectual critiques, to a concept, for example, racism or religion. That's because it is perfectly appropriate to be angry at the atrocities committed by humans in the name of said concepts.
I agree. But those are ideas and you must believe them to hold contempt for them. If someone didn't believe racism was an issue, then they couldn't hate it.
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28-11-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:24 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 04:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'll rephrase the question ...

Do you understand the difference between a god and the concept of a god?
I do, but I would still love to hear your version.

Nah. I asked first.

A few of the above posts have made the distinction but your reply to the dog, above, indicates that you don't quite get it yet.

Please, lemme know your ideas on this. My breath is baited.

Thanks.

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28-11-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 01:35 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I used to not only vehemently not believe in God, but also held a very strong contempt for God simultaneously. I recall cursing God out of some mix of hatred and disbelief.

I find those statements to be incoherent. I do not understand how you can hate something that you do not believe exists. I can have contempt for the idea of believing something without evidence and I can despise the actions believers undertake based on their belief in a god but I can't hate a god that I don't think exists. It's like hating Darth Vader or the borg any other fictional character -- in a discussion about Star Trek I can express the idea that the borg are evil but in real life I don't hate them in any meaningful sense of the word.

I don't know if you were ever an atheist or not but if you thought that there was an actual god to be hated then you weren't, by definition.

ETA: The above was written after misreading the next part of your post (see new post below); I'm leaving it as a response to the sentences quoted because others do say things like that but I see that you did not intend to make that claim.

(28-11-2015 03:37 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah, that's all good and great. My point is that I have observed seemingly countless cases of individuals here with an utter hatred for God and the general concept there of. This, in it's self negates atheism.

I suspect that what you've observed is people who hate religion and how much harm religious belief causes. I don't hate what I don't believe exists; I hate what people do in the name of their belief. Substitute "don't believe" for "ain't afraid" in this...



Yes I can relate to that as I hate some things that people do and not the people themselves. But I have to understand that their actions are real for me to dislike them. I can see how one can hate religions, but that isn't really the topic. There are some who proclaim not to hate a concept, but God or Jesus or whatever, what do some of you call it the floating spaghetti monster. All I'm saying is that for those few that hold some hatred or spite towards God, or the concept, are not atheists so either they are closer believers or hate mongering bigots.
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28-11-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
That doesn't pertain to those who have a hatred for religious views or practices for whatever reasons.
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28-11-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:40 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I find those statements to be incoherent. I do not understand how you can hate something that you do not believe exists. I can have contempt for the idea of believing something without evidence and I can despise the actions believers undertake based on their belief in a god but I can't hate a god that I don't think exists. It's like hating Darth Vader or the borg any other fictional character -- in a discussion about Star Trek I can express the idea that the borg are evil but in real life I don't hate them in any meaningful sense of the word.

I don't know if you were ever an atheist or not but if you thought that there was an actual god to be hated then you weren't, by definition.

ETA: The above was written after misreading the next part of your post (see new post below); I'm leaving it as a response to the sentences quoted because others do say things like that but I see that you did not intend to make that claim.


I suspect that what you've observed is people who hate religion and how much harm religious belief causes. I don't hate what I don't believe exists; I hate what people do in the name of their belief. Substitute "don't believe" for "ain't afraid" in this...



Yes I can relate to that as I hate some things that people do and not the people themselves. But I have to understand that their actions are real for me to dislike them. I can see how one can hate religions, but that isn't really the topic. There are some who proclaim not to hate a concept, but God or Jesus or whatever, what do some of you call it the floating spaghetti monster. All I'm saying is that for those few that hold some hatred or spite towards God, or the concept, are not atheists so either they are closer believers or hate mongering bigots.

FSM - FLYING not floating.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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28-11-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:28 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 05:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  Popsicle, if you were truly an atheist then you didn't believe in God's existence.

Do you hate purple unicorns?

Do you hate faeries?

Do you hate the little green goblin that steals your socks?

I mean, I suppose it's not impossible, depending on how insane you are, but I'd find it very hard to hate something that I did not believe existed.

Therefore I suspect that all along, you have been using an incorrect definition of the word 'atheist' - I think that *you* think that it means 'One who hates God', and indeed, from what I can recall of your posts you seem to assume that's what we all do, but in *fact* it means (ignoring technicalities such as lack of faith versus faith in lack) 'One who disbelieves the existence of God'.

Unless this is you trolling with some kind of bullshit because you'd like to be able to say that those of us who are ex-Christian were never real Christians?
That was the point I was making. And no, it is obvious that while some hold contempt for God there are others that simply don't believe without bias, simply due to compelling evidence. It is those whom I hold some sort of respect and whom are indeed a more leveled, true atheist.
Lack of compelling evidence.

I'm y'all's best player sometimes. Oops.
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28-11-2015, 09:47 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 09:24 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I do, but I would still love to hear your version.

Nah. I asked first.

A few of the above posts have made the distinction but your reply to the dog, above, indicates that you don't quite get it yet.

Please, lemme know your ideas on this. My breath is baited.

Thanks.
God, as in not a concept but the creative force responsible for all existence on some level, is what a believer would think.

The concept of God, a human construct bases on human knowledge, or the lack there of would be a phrase for a sceptic or disbeliever bent on an ideal that God was a creation of man, and not visa versa.
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28-11-2015, 09:47 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:42 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 09:40 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes I can relate to that as I hate some things that people do and not the people themselves. But I have to understand that their actions are real for me to dislike them. I can see how one can hate religions, but that isn't really the topic. There are some who proclaim not to hate a concept, but God or Jesus or whatever, what do some of you call it the floating spaghetti monster. All I'm saying is that for those few that hold some hatred or spite towards God, or the concept, are not atheists so either they are closer believers or hate mongering bigots.

FSM - FLYING not floating.
Thanks
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28-11-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:47 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 09:42 AM)Anjele Wrote:  FSM - FLYING not floating.
Thanks

No problem. Figured it was the only thing I could interject that you might actually hear.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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28-11-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Atheism for some?
(28-11-2015 09:34 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 06:16 AM)julep Wrote:  Sure, you were an atheist. And sure, now you're a believer. Both positions in your case driven primarily by emotion rather than thought. I'm not going to attack how genuinely you have held your past or present beliefs. I'll leave that kind of nastiness to you.

It's possible to have anger and contempt and other emotional reactions, in addition to intellectual critiques, to a concept, for example, racism or religion. That's because it is perfectly appropriate to be angry at the atrocities committed by humans in the name of said concepts.
I agree. But those are ideas and you must believe them to hold contempt for them. If someone didn't believe racism was an issue, then they couldn't hate it.
You are using "believe" in an imprecise way. I understand the concept of racism. I understand that there are people who think this concept is valid and let it influence their actions. That does not equate to any acceptance on my part that racist beliefs are true. I understand leprechauns as a concept just fine, too--this does not mean I believe in them. I don't have any negative emotions towards those who believe in leprechauns because they aren't trying to kill no believers or make nonbelievers second-class citizens.
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