Poll: is atheist organization politically oriented?
Yes - as organizations, atheists have a political agenda
No - as organizations, atheists are educators of truth
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Atheism is a political movement
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06-06-2011, 02:47 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(06-06-2011 02:38 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  And, you don't think that is the definition of political grievance organization, because I, the greatest reasoner of them all, am arguing that atheist organization is politically motivated, and you do not want to ever agree with me because I am a better reasoner than you.

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06-06-2011, 03:52 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
It does not look like you guys can put together a reasonable argument against my assertion, and it really seems to be hurting your egos - keep trying.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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06-06-2011, 04:14 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
You want a response on your brilliant insight that the crux of Atheist organizations is political? Really?

Ok, here is my counter argument: who fucking cares? Seriously, why is this even a topic for you? Are you that bored that you need to sit and worry about how other people are organizing their time? Really?

I think next XMas you need to ask Santa to bring you a life.

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06-06-2011, 08:45 PM
 
RE: Atheism is a political movement
Pointless question. As a minority there are numerous reasons to organize, some political and some not. Any group of people with something in common might organize for various reasons, so I fail to see your purpose in making this thread. It looks like a half-assed attempt to classify atheism with religions.
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06-06-2011, 10:11 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(06-06-2011 08:45 PM)Zach Wrote:  Pointless question. As a minority there are numerous reasons to organize, some political and some not. Any group of people with something in common might organize for various reasons, so I fail to see your purpose in making this thread. It looks like a half-assed attempt to classify atheism with religions.

Trainwreck will make a half assed attempt to classify anything.

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07-06-2011, 11:52 AM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2011 02:06 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(06-06-2011 04:14 PM)BnW Wrote:  You want a response on your brilliant insight that the crux of Atheist organizations is political? Really?

Ok, here is my counter argument: who fucking cares? Seriously, why is this even a topic for you? Are you that bored that you need to sit and worry about how other people are organizing their time? Really?

I think next XMas you need to ask Santa to bring you a life.
You should be very thankful that I have dedicated the past several years of my life to that of unraveling the social chaos we endure. I am very certain that you, and everyone else, has made the proclamation that things are all screwed up; but like everyone else you have not found the time to figure it out and then put together a solution. Consider Obama's campaign slogan that if he was to be elected to the Presidency it would bring about change to Washington - aside from the fact that change is an inevitable quality of social evolution, did he accomplish what he implied, or is Washington still consumed in "petty politics," as Obama terms it?
April 6, 2011 Wrote:It won't be easy, he warned, calling for hard work and moving past "petty politics" that can hinder progress. In particular, he wondered aloud why it had to be so politically difficult to get agreement in Washington for policies such as developing clean energy sources to reduce oil imports.

Imagine, if you would, that you are elected to represent a constituency and the President called you petty, and that your ideas for representing your constituency were petty - would you just shrug it off? Only, if you knew that you cannot sincerely represent the people, or that he was petty himself, would you shrug it off.

It is obvious, to anyone with a critically thinking mind, that political reform would have to include constitutional changes to correct the problems of the system of representation that lead to the election and re-election of politicians who cannot solve the social and governmental problems they are supposed to be solving, but rather perpetuate the chaos and inefficiencies of petty politics.

Things are fucked-up, what are you doing to solve them - bitching and moaning that the Christians are responsible for solving the problems??? If only they would stop the foolishness of believing in gods things would be so much better - wouldn't it? That's as far as you can think - isn't it?

Really - you are the one who needs to get a life.
(06-06-2011 08:45 PM)Zach Wrote:  Pointless question. As a minority there are numerous reasons to organize, some political and some not.
In a democratic-republic all reasons for organization are political - every activity has the potential for being politically regulated. Besides it is pretty difficult for me to proclaim that I am a minority, I am a white American man who is not bound to the restraints of religious thinking - I am expected to devise solutions, not excuses and cries of oppression - why don't you think that way?

Give me a list of the reasons atheists organize - I am confident they are all politically motivated, except for the bizarre belief that they are teaching the public what atheism is. And once atheists realize that their agenda is politically motivated it will straighten-out what atheism is.

(06-06-2011 08:45 PM)Zach Wrote:  Any group of people with something in common might organize for various reasons, so I fail to see your purpose in making this thread. It looks like a half-assed attempt to classify atheism with religions.
Yeah, it would be very advantages for atheists to consider religions as political interest organizations - it is the only way to prove to the people that the organization is erroneous and corrupt to the guidance of community and society. Which is the point of the final principle of the American Atheists agenda reproduced below. The only way you can verify by experience and scientific method a life-style and ethical outlook, which is what organized religions are going to claim to be, is you have to allow them the opportunity to prove, or fail, themselves in their own segregated environment. Atheists have been "proving" theism is wrong for centuries in the abstract, and it gets no where - it has to be done in the scientific model of control and experiment groupings.

(06-06-2011 10:11 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Trainwreck will make a half assed attempt to classify anything.
Half-assed is better than none at all, which is where society is at. At least with a half-assed attempt you have something to work with to find the correct alignment of a consistent system.

You should consider your forum as half-assed, like your farm; and work from there in trying to figure out how to improve it. Unless, of course, providing another Internet circle-jerk for atheists is your goal - then you have succeeded.


http://www.atheists.org/Aims_and_Principles

Quote:American Atheists, Inc., is organized

to stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;

to collect and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;

to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the complete and absolute separation of state and church;

to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;

to encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;

to develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the well-being and happiness of humanity;

to promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life;

to engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as will be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.

Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Quote:to stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;
Gee whiz, I just cannot imagine where atheists might stand on these types of things - can you? Atheists just love to talk about this shit - don't they?

Quote:to collect and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;
It sounds like they are passing out Bibles and Quorans!!!

Quote:to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the complete and absolute separation of state and church;
Hey - that's the political agenda I'm looking for!

Quote:to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;
That's political too - but I think their idea of secularism does not jive with the Secularism article I was directed to earlier in this discussion, otherwise they would have to advocate for the teaching of Creationism, Bible study, and organized prayer - but they don't do they?

Quote:to encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;
That's political, if not it is the same shit you would hear from a religious organization, only religions promote it through allegory of belief in the description of the gods. It doesn't seem like they are making much progress on it, anyway, otherwise we would be discussing what they have developed, because they would be disseminating it to us like the religious shit that they disseminate - wouldn't they?

Quote:to develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the well-being and happiness of humanity;
Sounds like the previous principle - doesn't it? What good is a social philosophy, if it is not a political philosophy, where it is enforced by the government???

Quote:to promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life;
Oh no - that cannot be political - are they talking about healthcare? Poor-ass bitches want to sponge off the rich Christians.

Quote:to engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as will be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.
Like what - what activities does the American Atheists organization promote and engage in that are these cultural, legal, and educational? And they better not call them "rituals" or "practices."

Quote:Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.
Oh MY - lookie here they have defined atheism as an attitude.

Scientific method!!!! what?? Any ideas on what they are talking about here?

Can only be accomplished by states rights.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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07-06-2011, 04:08 PM
 
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  In a democratic-republic all reasons for organization are political
Aside from the fact that this assertion is pointless, the only way you can sustain it is to change your definitions of organization and political to prevent anything from qualifying as a counter-example, which is equivalent to defining a car as something red and then arguing that all cars are red. And I still fail to see the use in asking everyone whether they think atheism is a political movement, what does that tell us?

An atheist psych major starts a club on a college campus, for the purpose of helping people who have issues with their overly religious families. There's your counter-example, and if you didn't feel a need to insist that you're right I'm sure you could think of plenty more without my help.

(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Besides it is pretty difficult for me to proclaim that I am a minority, I am a white American man who is not bound to the restraints of religious thinking - I am expected to devise solutions, not excuses and cries of oppression - why don't you think that way?
I don't consider myself oppressed, and I don't really care which of my opinions put me in a minority and which don't. I'm stating that atheists are a minority, at least in America, and that can contribute reasons to organize.
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07-06-2011, 06:21 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Things are fucked-up, what are you doing to solve them - bitching and moaning that the Christians are responsible for solving the problems??? If only they would stop the foolishness of believing in gods things would be so much better - wouldn't it? That's as far as you can think - isn't it?

Really - you are the one who needs to get a life.

Ok, I'll play.

What exactly are you doing to solve these problems? What impact has all your classifying and pontificating had on anything or anyone? What difference have you made in the world at all? I see you chirping about your accomplishments but does anyone care? Near as I can tell, the answer to that is a resounding "no".

You are a gnat in this world, a nothing. You matter not one whit in the world and for all your blustering and posturing that is not going to change. Oh wait, that's right; you're going to win the Nobel Prize for your classification system. Let us all know when that happens. Let us all know when someone, anyone, other than you gives two seconds of time to you or any of your ideas.

You're less than a gnat, you're gnat that has been smashed into a windshield.

Oh, and you've got me confused with someone else if you think I'm "bitching and moaning that the Christians are responsible for solving the problems" (and for the record, I think Obama is probably an agnostic). I do no such thing. I'm too busy living my life and enjoying it.

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08-06-2011, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2011 01:27 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What exactly are you doing to solve these problems?
I am putting together a political agenda of corrections to constitutions so as to ensure people that they are in control of their representation. This requires a considerable amount of reasoning to understand what is wrong with contemporary constitutions and what misunderstandings people have concerning constitutions and representation.
(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What impact has all your classifying and pontificating had on anything or anyone?
My devising of an all encompassing classification system demonstrates my superior reasoning skills and justifies my attention to devising a constitutional reform agenda. Its impact on people has yet to be established; as it is, it will probably have to go through the route of Christian approval, considering that Internet forum atheists are demonstrating no interest due in part to their misgivings concerning their recognition of what constitutes deliberate reason.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What difference have you made in the world at all? I see you chirping about your accomplishments but does anyone care? Near as I can tell, the answer to that is a resounding "no".
Yeah, I am going to have to go through the very strong gauntlet of scientific review lead by Christians for a situation that has no precedent of peer review - there is no quality control regulation for classification, because it is considered irrelevant to understanding knowledge and social order, because a classification system that is ontologically accurate does not account for an omniscient god, just communications.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  You are a gnat in this world, a nothing. You matter not one whit in the world and for all your blustering and posturing that is not going to change. You're less than a gnat, you're gnat that has been smashed into a windshield.
No, I am not a bug. I am a homeless man with considerably strong skills of critical thinking and reasoning. you on the other hand are a standard run of the mill perplexed atheist who only knows to cry of being oppressed by the Christians in the hopes that they will all change to your liking.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  Oh wait, that's right; you're going to win the Nobel Prize for your classification system. Let us all know when that happens. Let us all know when someone, anyone, other than you gives two seconds of time to you or any of your ideas.
Don't forget, I also claim that a scientific theory/law will be attributed to me, as well. So, you will hear of me.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  Oh, and you've got me confused with someone else if you think I'm "bitching and moaning that the Christians are responsible for solving the problems" (and for the record, I think Obama is probably an agnostic). I do no such thing. I'm too busy living my life and enjoying it.
Yeah, I got you mixed up with the usual Internet atheists who will dive into finding the religious aspects of an argument that was not primarily concerned - my discussion about Obama was not about his religion, but rather his education and campaign integrity
(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  An atheist psych major starts a club on a college campus, for the purpose of helping people who have issues with their overly religious families. There's your counter-example, and if you didn't feel a need to insist that you're right I'm sure you could think of plenty more without my help.
You assume this type of club is irrelevant to the social-political temperament of its surrounding community, and that is just not true - people have a right to regulate the activities in their political districts. To you the club's ambition is harmless to the community, but to others it appears to be a threat, and they have a right to ensure that that threat is eliminated.

You just happen to think that you are the judge of benign and detrimental, but you will never win that. If you could be such a judge, you would be doing what I am doing and that is devise a political agenda to ensure people that they are in control of their political environments.

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  In a democratic-republic all reasons for organization are political
Aside from the fact that this assertion is pointless, the only way you can sustain it is to change your definitions of organization and political to prevent anything from qualifying as a counter-example...
Every organization has the potential to being regulated by the political governing system of the district, and every organization has an interest in soliciting the political governing system for sanctions.

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  And I still fail to see the use in asking everyone whether they think atheism is a political movement, what does that tell us?
If atheists were to recognize that their organizational motives were political then they would improve the consistency in their agenda - the American Atheist list of principles is an example of their inconsistency and foolishness.

The Christians would have much more respect for the atheists if they recognized that they were a political movement, and not what ever it is atheists do thing atheist organizations are - what do you thing atheists organizations are?

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Besides it is pretty difficult for me to proclaim that I am a minority, I am a white American man who is not bound to the restraints of religious thinking - I am expected to devise solutions, not excuses and cries of oppression - why don't you think that way?
I don't consider myself oppressed, and I don't really care which of my opinions put me in a minority and which don't. I'm stating that atheists are a minority, at least in America, and that can contribute reasons to organize.
And what is that if it is not political?

It would probably help if you had a list of the potential classes of organization, as it is the atheists in America are of the same class as the religions - 503© education.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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08-06-2011, 01:51 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(08-06-2011 12:56 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What exactly are you doing to solve these problems?
I am putting together a political agenda of corrections to constitutions so as to ensure people that they are in control of their representation. This requires a considerable amount of reasoning to understand what is wrong with contemporary constitutions and what misunderstandings people have concerning constitutions and representation.
(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What impact has all your classifying and pontificating had on anything or anyone?
My devising of an all encompassing classification system demonstrates my superior reasoning skills and justifies my attention to devising a constitutional reform agenda. Its impact on people has yet to be established; as it is, it will probably have to go through the route of Christian approval, considering that Internet forum atheists are demonstrating no interest due in part to their misgivings concerning their recognition of what constitutes deliberate reason.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  What difference have you made in the world at all? I see you chirping about your accomplishments but does anyone care? Near as I can tell, the answer to that is a resounding "no".
Yeah, I am going to have to go through the very strong gauntlet of scientific review lead by Christians for a situation that has no precedent of peer review - there is no quality control regulation for classification, because it is considered irrelevant to understanding knowledge and social order, because a classification system that is ontologically accurate does not account for an omniscient god, just communications.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  You are a gnat in this world, a nothing. You matter not one whit in the world and for all your blustering and posturing that is not going to change. You're less than a gnat, you're gnat that has been smashed into a windshield.
No, I am not a bug. I am a homeless man with considerably strong skills of critical thinking and reasoning. you on the other hand are a standard run of the mill perplexed atheist who only knows to cry of being oppressed by the Christians in the hopes that they will all change to your liking.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  Oh wait, that's right; you're going to win the Nobel Prize for your classification system. Let us all know when that happens. Let us all know when someone, anyone, other than you gives two seconds of time to you or any of your ideas.
Don't forget, I also claim that a scientific theory/law will be attributed to me, as well. So, you will hear of me.

(07-06-2011 06:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  Oh, and you've got me confused with someone else if you think I'm "bitching and moaning that the Christians are responsible for solving the problems" (and for the record, I think Obama is probably an agnostic). I do no such thing. I'm too busy living my life and enjoying it.
Yeah, I got you mixed up with the usual Internet atheists who will dive into finding the religious aspects of an argument that was not primarily concerned - my discussion about Obama was not about his religion, but rather his education and campaign integrity
(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  An atheist psych major starts a club on a college campus, for the purpose of helping people who have issues with their overly religious families. There's your counter-example, and if you didn't feel a need to insist that you're right I'm sure you could think of plenty more without my help.
You assume this type of club is irrelevant to the social-political temperament of its surrounding community, and that is just not true - people have a right to regulate the activities in their political districts. To you the club's ambition is harmless to the community, but to others it appears to be a threat, and they have a right to ensure that that threat is eliminated.

You just happen to think that you are the judge of benign and detrimental, but you will never win that. If you could be such a judge, you would be doing what I am doing and that is devise a political agenda to ensure people that they are in control of their political environments.

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  In a democratic-republic all reasons for organization are political
Aside from the fact that this assertion is pointless, the only way you can sustain it is to change your definitions of organization and political to prevent anything from qualifying as a counter-example...
Every organization has the potential to being regulated by the political governing system of the district, and every organization has an interest in soliciting the political governing system for sanctions.

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  And I still fail to see the use in asking everyone whether they think atheism is a political movement, what does that tell us?
If atheists were to recognize that their organizational motives were political then they would improve the consistency in their agenda - the American Atheist list of principles is an example of their inconsistency and foolishness.

The Christians would have much more respect for the atheists if they recognized that they were a political movement, and not what ever it is atheists do thing atheist organizations are - what do you thing atheists organizations are?

(07-06-2011 04:08 PM)Zach Wrote:  
(07-06-2011 11:52 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Besides it is pretty difficult for me to proclaim that I am a minority, I am a white American man who is not bound to the restraints of religious thinking - I am expected to devise solutions, not excuses and cries of oppression - why don't you think that way?
I don't consider myself oppressed, and I don't really care which of my opinions put me in a minority and which don't. I'm stating that atheists are a minority, at least in America, and that can contribute reasons to organize.
And what is that if it is not political?

It would probably help if you had a list of the potential classes of organization, as it is the atheists in America are of the same class as the religions - 503© education.

I`ll just say this, Atheism is not by any means a political movement because it has no outright political agenda. There is one by proxy but it`s more of an after effect. Regardless of what it is, you sir couldn`t be named more aptly. The attitude you sport is ferocious and poorly aimed. If you are trying to get people to listen to you I hate to tell you this, but you are failing miserably. People tend to block out imbeciles shouting from mountain tops, especially when they are telling everyone else how great they are, and how much better they are at reasoning... Which by the way is extremely debatable. You sound like a theist explaining reason in the bible. It is because God says it is... so there. Instead of attempting to berate everyone into your point of view maybe take a step back and calm down.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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