Poll: is atheist organization politically oriented?
Yes - as organizations, atheists have a political agenda
No - as organizations, atheists are educators of truth
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Atheism is a political movement
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09-06-2011, 02:04 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
TrainWreck, why are you on here preaching at us if we are all such idiots like you say we are? If we are CLEARLY too limited to understand your 'infinite wisdom' why don't you take it elsewhere and share it with people who will appreciate it?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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09-06-2011, 02:11 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
Hey let`s all calm down.
I will tell you all what I am doing to make this a better world. Firstly I am raising my daughter to use her mind as her best tool. I am nice to people I meet, and I try not to judge first as hard as that may be. Not to say I succeed in these things as often as I should but I try. I know you didn`t ask me. But it`s ok I promise.

I only have one question for Trainwreck, and I don`t mean it as an attack, but do you personally believe that being as aggressive as you seem to be is truly effective in anything other than making people mad at you. I`ve mostly found (in my quite aggressive younger days) that aggression only nets you more aggression in return. Often shutting peoples minds down to any new information you may have. I`m in no way saying your idea is wrong, so don`t take it that way. I personally don`t see much of a purpose in it, but that`s me. It`s obviously something you are passionate about and that`s cool. Have a good day man.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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09-06-2011, 02:30 PM
 
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(09-06-2011 08:57 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  No it doesn't. You just have to declare what the organization is besides being politically responsible. Your example of a student self-help group remains a self-help group with the added responsibility of participating in the political progression of the district it resides. That is the idea behind the First Amendment right to assemble and petition the federal government - every organization has to be able to do that.

So, then the question comes to you, what organizations are forbidden from petitioning the government because of their ideological classification?

If you claim religious organizations, then you are forbidding atheist organizations, as well, because they are of the same government classification 501© as religious organizations - so what are atheist organizations?

I understand and agree with what you're saying here. But doesn't this make a discussion of whether or not atheist groups is political pointless? My objection was that calling an organization political has no point, since unless I'm still confused you consider any organization political by definition.

But we're arguing over semantics. (If I understand you) You are asserting that any organization can have political implications, and specifically mentioning atheist organizations as one of them. I don't think that these organizations require an agenda if they aren't very politically active. A discussion forum like this, for example, is probably intended as a casual place to debate or talk to other atheists about whatever one wants to talk about. But I agree that if they are political, they would want to have a clear agenda if they want to accomplish something.

In response to your question, I don't believe any people or organizations should be prohibited from petitioning government.

(09-06-2011 08:57 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I am pretty sure we agree - I am classifying every organization as political, but that does not mean that organizations cannot be further defined, which you seem to claim cannot be done. Why can't organizations be further defined?

I am wondering, if atheist organizations are not political, then what are they??? if you are going to claim that they are educational then wouldn't you expect them to devise a curriculum? Do you really believe they provide educational qualities? Do you think anybody seeks atheist organizations as providers of education, or are you going to smarten-up and realize that atheist organizations essentially provide a pseudo-educational cover for political motives?

But I am rendering the religious organizations as political interests and disqualifying the political exemptions they are granted and allowing them to be subject to political scrutiny - that should be appealing to atheists.

Could you explain organizations being further defined? I'm not sure how I claim that can't be done. Or have I made myself more clear in the first part of my post?

And, just so we're on the same page, if the psychology major from the previous example created the organization with a broader purpose - helping other students deal with family issues, whatever they might be - would it still be considered political?

It looked like you were arguing that being atheist makes an organization political, rather than the other qualities you explained that apply to any group. I don't see how making it atheist (or theist for that matter) automatically makes it political, but that wasn't your point.

(09-06-2011 08:57 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Sure, atheists in general do not need an agenda, but the organizations do need a consistent agenda, because politics is their primary concern, although they deny it without legitimate reason, as I have critiqued the silliness of the American Atheists principles.

The reason atheists should care about what the Christians think of them is that atheists, like all organizations, are trying to persuade others to join in and participate in progressing a social philosophy that is decidedly better for society.

Again, misunderstanding on my part. No objections to what you've stated.

(09-06-2011 08:57 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  There is a website I am building to explain it.
https://sites.google.com/site/slicintro/

The higher purpose of the system's development is to provide a classification system that can be used as a reference for the purposes very similar to how a dictionary is used as a reference. You, like most, do not recognize the potential of what a classification system offers to that of understanding knowledge, because the antiquated systems of Dewey and the Library of Congress have not been used as references of understanding knowledge because they are inaccurate to representing a scientific ordering by design. It is apparent to me that Dewey and Putnam were under some amount of pressure to avoid a scientific rendering because such would be detrimental to the authority of Christianity.

The only reason it sounds useless to you is because you are indulgent of a mob mentality of atheists who have been unwittingly unaware of the utility of classification systems, something that they could somewhat blame on Christianity, until now. Now the blame for not providing accurate classification systems rest on atheists, as I have delivered the latest, if not first, generation of scientific classification of all of knowledge to the atheists attention. Although, you use the term, "classification," in your argument above, you certainly do not have a list of the possible classifications of organizations, otherwise you would have provided it in your argument. Consider Unbeliever's predicament over in the Philosophy thread, I explained to him that philosophy is the study of abstract systems, he is of the belief that that is not true, but when confronted with the evidence he has no defense, and whimpers away with out so much as acknowledgement of being wrong. If he had a better classification system by which he could reference he would have realized that philosophy is the only field by which we study abstract systems that we humans devise. But he has some other understanding of philosophy that he cannot even describe. he sure would have benefited from a good scientific rendering of classification, but he did not have one.

So (and I don't mean to oversimplify what you're doing) you're trying to come up with a more comprehensive replacement for the classification systems you described?

I'm not really sure what I can say about it. I still don't understand what makes it as useful as you seem to think it is, but I don't want to go off-topic discussing it right now, although I am curious.
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09-06-2011, 02:31 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  That is right, I am more of a free-thinker than anyone. I am not burdened by a spouse, whose ideas I have to respect; and I am not burdened by a job where there are ideas that have to be respected.

Nor are you in an environment where anyone has to respect your ideas. It cuts both ways. And, that is a large part of your problem. You have no idea how to talk to people, to convey thoughts and ideas, to influence behavior or to present an argument. For all your pontifications and purported brilliance, the simple fact is that no one will be interested in anything you have to say.

Oh, and the other problem is you have entirely too much free time on your hands.

(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  You have no idea how difficult it is to be a free-thinker - to be able to recognize the erroneous ideas that permeate through society as being correct.

It must be hell being you. Just awful. And yet you bear the burden with such dignity and grace and, dare I say, humility.

(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  What is it that you do for a living

Corporate lawyer/societal parasite.

(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  - what kind of a house do you live in?

A nice comfy one, with a stocked fridge and central AC. Seeing as how it's almost 100F today, that should come in handy.

(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Now own up, answer the question, shit head - what are you doing to make this a better world?

Probably not all that much or, as I like to call it: exactly the same as you.

Not, that's not right and it's being very unfair to me. My impact is small scale but I do what I can for my wife, for my kids, for my family, for my friends, and for all the people in my life. I help them when they need help, I listen when they need someone to talk to, etc. I have basic day-to-day human contact and treat the people in my life with respect. My impression of you (and admittedly this could be wrong and your whole tude could be a great act) is that you have probably alienated most everyone you ever knew.

How about your family? Are they proud of you?

(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I answered your questions, and responded to your bullshit ad hominum - what more can I do for you? You think I am undeserving of your brilliant powers of reasoning??? I'm going to rub your nose in your worthlessness.

Ok, first and foremost, my ad hominum was not bull shit. Secondly, the undeserving comment was hilarious irony. And third, my nose still feels pretty clean and happy.

You are truly delusional and I almost feel sorry for you. You're clearly not stupid and you probably could have done something with your life and maybe actually made a difference to someone, somewhere.

Such a waste.

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09-06-2011, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2011 03:51 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(09-06-2011 02:04 PM)hughsie Wrote:  TrainWreck, why are you on here preaching at us if we are all such idiots like you say we are?
Well, obviously this is not my first forum, as I have been participating and monitoring atheists on the Internet since 2002 - I am keeping track of the recurrence of discussions, and the (in)activities of atheists. I have to make an attempt, as best I can, to persuade atheists to understand that what they are doing only maintains their improper indignations towards the powers that seemingly inhibit what might be the atheists claim to social justice. Atheists claim that they are the guardians of science, reason, and truth compared to the Christians, that should render atheists as the better political officials, but atheists make no attempt to render full political agenda - why not?

So long as atheists continually reject the ideas I present, it builds my credibility as the more reasonable representative of the atheist cause - which is what the Christians will acknowledge. I am very confident in what I am doing. It is very difficult work that I have accomplished thus far with a rendering of a scientific order of knowledge classification - it is a much better system by which people can use as a reference, compared to the other system which are not used. And the question is going to be, why did the atheists not recognize that any system is more appropriate and progressive to helping people understand the importance of classification, than that of systems rendered a hundred years ago and perpetuated without political regulation, or quality control?

It is obvious that the Dewey system is biased to Christianity, yet atheists, who are the champions to disparage Christian influence when ever possible, have missed this??? Which demonstrates the atheists inability to correctly reason.

(09-06-2011 02:04 PM)hughsie Wrote:  If we are CLEARLY too limited to understand your 'infinite wisdom' why don't you take it elsewhere and share it with people who will appreciate it?
that will happen, but why don't you just ignore me?


(09-06-2011 02:31 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(08-06-2011 02:28 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  What is it that you do for a living

Corporate lawyer/societal parasite.

Clearly, you understand that the only way to change Washington is by changing constitutions; and that each and every citizen is responsible for understanding the constitutions that guard their political districts. I am putting together a less complicated system of constitutions for people to use, and I am confident it can be done.

Certainly, you should realize that atheists, and all the other winey-ass minority interest groups, would benefit from proportional representation.

Certainly, you understand that the persons in political power haven't the ambition to change the election process for fear that it would jeopardize their job security. So who is it that would put together the constitutional changes that would change Washington? It is amazing that lawyers have not done so - but then again it is amazing to me that no one has come up with a more accurate classification system, until I set my sights to do so.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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09-06-2011, 04:26 PM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(09-06-2011 03:38 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Clearly, you understand that the only way to change Washington is by changing constitutions; and that each and every citizen is responsible for understanding the constitutions that guard their political districts. I am putting together a less complicated system of constitutions for people to use, and I am confident it can be done.

Ignoring whether or not I agree with this.... "can" be done? Sure, why not. "Will" be done? Doubt it.

(09-06-2011 03:38 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Certainly, you should realize that atheists, and all the other winey-ass minority interest groups, would benefit from proportional representation.

You lost me at "winey-ass minority interest groups"

(09-06-2011 03:38 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Certainly, you understand that the persons in political power haven't the ambition to change the election process for fear that it would jeopardize their job security. So who is it that would put together the constitutional changes that would change Washington? It is amazing that lawyers have not done so - but then again it is amazing to me that no one has come up with a more accurate classification system, until I set my sights to do so.

I'm a lawyer, not a superhero. I don't have any power to change anything in DC. They not only have power but they have guns and tanks and planes to back it up. Oh, and they have time to do so. I don't.

As for your point about no one has come up with a more accurate classification system, perhaps it is because in a world of over 6 billion people, no one else has seen the need.

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10-06-2011, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2011 11:25 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Atheism is a political movement
Well, it sounds like you do not agree that constitutional/election reform is the only way to change Washington - what might be the other possibilities? I cannot interpret any other possibilities, and I am eager to hear any, because it would seem to be an excellent exercise of reason.

Yes, putting together a robust agenda of constitutional reform is definitely a time consuming project, I understand that most people cannot attend to such a project, that is why I am attending to it; and which is the point I was trying to make about my having spent three years deliberating a scientific order for classification - I am dedicated to doing such - I want to "help" the world-wide community.
(09-06-2011 02:31 PM)BnW Wrote:  You are truly delusional and I almost feel sorry for you. You're clearly not stupid and you probably could have done something with your life and maybe actually made a difference to someone, somewhere. . . Such a waste.
No - I am not a waste. You are just a product of the erroneousness of society. You recognize that there is something askew about society, but are perplexed as to actually determining what is wrong and how to fix it. You haven't the time because you have accumulated responsibilities that also effect your ability to freely think.

I am not the delusional one, I remind you, I devised a scientific order of classification. At some point in the future many academics are going to review the system I have devised and they are going to asses it as being valid and accurate, and the question is going to be why hadn't anyone done this already?

I am different - I recognized that there was something wrong with society, and I decided that I was going to figure it out.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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10-06-2011, 11:31 AM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
TrainWreck, what is your classification system?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-06-2011, 11:50 AM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
(10-06-2011 11:09 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Well, it sounds like you do not agree that constitutional/election reform is the only way to change Washington - what might be the other possibilities? I cannot interpret any other possibilities, and I am eager to hear any, because it would seem to be an excellent exercise of reason.

It is not that I don't agree, it's just that I don't think that is the whole problem. Our Constitution is constantly undergoing reform. It undergoes reform as the courts continue to interpret it, as law makers push the boundaries of what it means, as the executive branch grabs new powers for itself, etc. The document has been constantly reformed and more reform really doesn't seem like a viable solution to me.

If we really want to see change in how Washington, or any government, operates, I think there are a few very basic things you can do that would have a dramatic impact. Stop treating corporations as citizens who have the same rights and protections as living, breathing people. That would certainly be a good start. Take private money out of the election process and maybe fund all elections with public dollars would be a good start as well. Currently, our elected officials all seem to cater to their primary constituents, those of course being the entities that funnel millions of dollars to their Political Action Committees and re-election war chests. All money comes with strings attached. You want politicians to stop acting like they are bought and paid for, then stop allowing large corporate (and even private) interests to buy and pay for them.

That will obviously take some Constitutional reform given the current state of the law, but I think it is small enough scale that it could be done - although over the kicking and screaming bodies of a majority of our current crop of elected officials.

(10-06-2011 11:09 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Yes, putting together a robust agenda of constitutional reform is definitely a time consuming project, I understand that most people cannot attend to such a project, that is why I am attending to it; and which is the point I was trying to make about my having spent three years deliberating a scientific order for classification - I am dedicated to doing such - I want to "help" the world-wide community.

And we all thank you from the bottom of our hearts. It would probably help, though if you could:
1. explain the value of your classification system; and
2. be less of an ass when discussing it.

I'd suggest starting with point #2 because if you can't get over that hurdle, point #1 is pretty much irrelevant. No one listens to someone who just pisses them off. And you, without a doubt, piss people off.

(10-06-2011 11:09 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  No - I am not a waste. You are just a product of the erroneousness of society. You recognize that there is something askew about society, but are perplexed as to actually determining what is wrong and how to fix it. You haven't the time because you have accumulated responsibilities that also effect your ability to freely think.

What are you the product of, exactly?

And, you're right, you're not a waste; you are a child. Adults grow up and understand the need to take on responsibilities. Even if it is not responsibility for others it is at a minimum a responsibility for themselves. Someone who cannot meet the minimum threshold of personal accountability is going to be viewed as a child, or childlike, and most likely is never going to be taken seriously. Few people will be willing to pay much attention to a seemingly intelligent man who prefers to become homeless so he can avoid all responsibilities and influences that may clutter his thinking and influence his outlook. I'm sure you are going to view that as an attack, but it's not. On the contrary, it is simply an observation and one you probably realize is accurate.

(10-06-2011 11:09 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I am different - I recognized that there was something wrong with society, and I decided that I was going to figure it out.

Right, and the answer is we have not classified ourselves properly. Got it.

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10-06-2011, 11:53 AM
RE: Atheism is a political movement
If you go to his site, and read his posts, you get the feeling that a few years ago some librarian rudely referred him to the Dewey Decimal System and then he spilled his drink on his favorite shirt while trying to operate the card catalogs, then couldn't find the book he was looking for so he got uber pissed and stood up on a table and proclaimed "YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE LAST OF ME! I WILL BE BACK AND THEN WE'LL SEE WHO HAS THE LAST LAUGH!!!" to which the librarian replied "shhhhhhhh! people are trying to study!" which of course only made him more uber pissed and he ran home to his mom's basement, err, laboratory with the hopes to one day become:


[Image: ConanTheLibrarian.jpg]

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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