Atheism is a position with assumptions...
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30-12-2014, 08:53 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Despite my "lack of belief" I do not consider myself to be an atheist.

I don't dwell on lacking belief in any theist claims, why would I bother.

I also don't assume science will answer the question of existence, nor look to it to guide my philosophy on anything. What is proven, or not falsified holds no sway on defining my position.

Those who do seem use science are addressing creationists and then take it that step further and assume that existence will be accounted for by science.(i.e philosophical naturalism). This is an assumption with no basis beyond assumption.

Is anyone who holds this position able to rationalise it beyond the standard canned arguments, which convince only the converted?

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30-12-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:48 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:45 PM)Anjele Wrote:  No they aren't. Not all of them.

Dandy claim on your part though.

I'm sure there are many atheist's here who love religion, most of the founding father's (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc) like religion but are compelled to tell the truth.

Okay, you are a dumb ass who wants to play a game of semantics. Maybe there is someone here who wants to play your silly game.

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30-12-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
We can account for our existence by examining all of the observable evidence around us.

We can make hypothesis and conduct experiments.
We can slowly piece together how organic matter emerged from non-organic matter.

Lots of experiments, past and present can show that organic proteins can naturally form from non-organic material.

We don't know all the specifics yet of abiogenesis but we are working on it.

Without knowing the specifics of how life started we can show that all life is related and how it all changes through evolution.

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30-12-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
Quote:
(30-12-2014 08:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Despite my "lack of belief" I do not consider myself to be an atheist.
Perhaps you could benefit from owning a dictionary.

Laugh out load Sorry you don't get to define my position. Also, atheists us the lack of belief position to remove any burden of proof for philosophical naturalism.

Damn all you guys sing from the same hymn book.
It's as if you all hold the same position, with the same doctrinal text. Oh yes, you do.

Quote:
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  I also don't assume science will answer the question of existence, nor look to it to guide my philosophy on anything. What is proven, or not falsified holds no sway on defining my position.
There is no requirement for atheists to be interested in science. You, for example, are an atheist that is not interested in science.

I'm not an atheist, and I am interested in science. It does not determine the philosophy I adhere to. IF science finds something relevant to answering the riddle of existence then I will listen. Until then I'm not using what it has proven to assume something it hasn't proven.

Quote:
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Those who do seem use science are addressing creationists...
Science definitively shows that creationists are wrong. Evolution is true, Earth is over 4 billion years old, dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Our observable universe is over 14 billion years old. We can see light from other galaxies which has traveled for millions or billions of years. The grand canyon has been formed over millions of years of wear and tear due to the flow of the Colorado river.

But science does much much more than prove creationist wrong, science is a proven and solid method of discovery, for anyone interested in the mechanisms and characteristics of our natural universe.

Sure, what has it proven around existence. Is the multiverse true for example?


Quote:
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  ...and then take it that step further and assume that existence will be accounted for by science.(i.e philosophical naturalism). This is an assumption with no basis beyond assumption.
Most atheists I know admit that humans don't yet know how our observable universe came to be.

Some do, some don't. There are strongly implied overtones by many atheists which claim the 'natural' (what we can observe) is all there is, otherwise why would so many address this as pivotal towards justifying atheism.
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30-12-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:45 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:41 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Everyone has an agenda--not sure what you are trying to achieve by claiming I state otherwise.

Your second sentence is word salad--what by-product are you talking about, and how does the concept of existence have this by-product property you speak of?

This may help:
What makes you think the by-product of existence (humanity) is able to account for that which created it (existence)?

In other words, you question humanity's ability to explain existence because humanity is part of said existence. That's the problem of "Plato's Cave". We may in fact not be able to explain existence because of this, however science is the best tool we have to break out of our limited perspective. The limitations of our human intuition and senses require rigorous application of logic combined with evidence to overcome these limitations .
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30-12-2014, 08:58 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  We can account for our existence by examining all of the observable evidence around us.

We can make hypothesis and conduct experiments.
We can slowly piece together how organic matter emerged from non-organic matter.

Lots of experiments, past and present can show that organic proteins can naturally form from non-organic material.

We don't know all the specifics yet of abiogenesis but we are working on it.

Without knowing the specifics of how life started we can show that all life is related and how it all changes through evolution.

Laugh out load
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30-12-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:54 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:48 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  I'm sure there are many atheist's here who love religion, most of the founding father's (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc) like religion but are compelled to tell the truth.

Okay, you are a dumb ass who wants to play a game of semantics. Maybe there is someone here who wants to play your silly game.

Oh you think that's semantics? Wow. To be fair to you, atheists are not remotely objective so I am setting you up.
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30-12-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:59 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:54 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Okay, you are a dumb ass who wants to play a game of semantics. Maybe there is someone here who wants to play your silly game.

Oh you think that's semantics? Wow. To be fair to you, atheists are not remotely objective so I am setting you up.

Also to be fair, describing an entire group of people as having a certain character flaw will win you neither debate points nor friends.
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30-12-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:57 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:45 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  This may help:
What makes you think the by-product of existence (humanity) is able to account for that which created it (existence)?

In other words, you question humanity's ability to explain existence because humanity is part of said existence. That's the problem of "Plato's Cave". We may in fact not be able to explain existence because of this, however science is the best tool we have to break out of our limited perspective. The limitations of our human intuition and senses require rigorous application of logic combined with evidence to overcome these limitations .

The best tool does not mean it can answer it, nor that we should behave as if it definitely can. Atheists believe this to be true without any evidence beyond disproving creationism. Sorry this does;t give you any more than what it gives you.

You realise many average "atheists" want nothing to do with active atheism don't you? Why do you think that is?
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30-12-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:58 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  We can account for our existence by examining all of the observable evidence around us.

We can make hypothesis and conduct experiments.
We can slowly piece together how organic matter emerged from non-organic matter.

Lots of experiments, past and present can show that organic proteins can naturally form from non-organic material.

We don't know all the specifics yet of abiogenesis but we are working on it.

Without knowing the specifics of how life started we can show that all life is related and how it all changes through evolution.

Laugh out load

I tried to treat you like a reasonable adult.
My mistake.

Facepalm

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