Atheism is a position with assumptions...
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03-01-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 02:40 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  The thing is, a christian can come along and say the stupidest shit and none of us really blink that much because they are slowly defining what it means to be christian.

In my mind christian is now synonymous with someone who says stupid shit

"because they are slowly defining what it means to be christian."
Actually they are slowly re-defining what it means.

The second mouse gets the cheese.
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03-01-2015, 07:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2015 08:04 PM by mordant.)
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Despite my "lack of belief" I do not consider myself to be an atheist.

I don't dwell on lacking belief in any theist claims, why would I bother.

I also don't assume science will answer the question of existence, nor look to it to guide my philosophy on anything. What is proven, or not falsified holds no sway on defining my position.

Those who do seem use science are addressing creationists and then take it that step further and assume that existence will be accounted for by science.(i.e philosophical naturalism). This is an assumption with no basis beyond assumption.

Is anyone who holds this position able to rationalise it beyond the standard canned arguments, which convince only the converted?
An atheist simply doesn't accord belief to any deities whatsoever. Atheism is an accurate label if you don't believe in the existence of any deity.

From there you can believe or think a bunch of other things, address or not address the claims of certain theists, subscribe to scientism or not.

An atheist does not afford belief to deities because an atheist sees no reason to do so. No satisfactory evidence of any such thing, at all, even a little.

It's a belief position, not a knowledge position. As such, any theist can present their positive belief-claims and whatever evidence they have for them, and an atheist can then decide whether they see those claims as substantiated and therefore believable. An atheist can do this because he does not claim to have disproved gods, either generally or specifically. Just not to have seen any valid evidence of them.
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03-01-2015, 07:19 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 06:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Atheism is typically defined as the absence of a belief in god.

That "absence of belief" is created from a competing belief as to what is a qualified credible authority on the subject of god.
It is necessary only to reject the ersatz authority of the proffered holy book. It isn't up to the person who is not making the positive argument, to provide an alternate authority -- or to provide or prove anything at all.
(03-01-2015 06:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Thus, theism vs. atheism is a debate between two competing belief systems, each based on a different chosen authority.

Forum atheists are often very confused about this, thinking that their "absence of belief" somehow arises from nothing whatsoever.
It arises from not being convinced. Simples.
(03-01-2015 06:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  There are various reasons for this confusion.

1) The forum atheist is simply young, and hasn't had a chance to fully think their position through yet.
Well I am 58 so I guess I'm off the hook there.
(03-01-2015 06:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  2) The forum atheist believes in the qualifications of human reason to address the god question so thoroughly, so completely, so unquestionably, that they take these qualifications as an obvious given, not realizing that an assertion of such qualifications requires proof just as any assertion does.
Not completely, just sufficiently for purposes of deciding whether the god-claims are believable.
(03-01-2015 06:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  3) For some forum atheists, the focus of their participation is a desire to enjoy the experience of always being the challenger, on the attack. Agreeing that their position is also built upon beliefs would cause this poster to have to shift some of their focus from offense to defense. They find this requirement an unacceptable interference in their attack agenda, and so deny all belief.
It is an interesting question whether not believing X requires that one must believe some other thing, Y. I would argue not. In order to function in the world I have to believe something, but that something does not necessarily have to be an abreaction to X.

That said, I don't mind defending the beliefs I actually happen to have. I have substantial if not unlimited belief that rational, empirical thinking is superior to wishful thinking, for example.
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03-01-2015, 08:26 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 04:07 AM)Jack_Ripper Wrote:  I'm sorry you live in a world you don't think exists, and your 2+2 doesn't equal 4. Must be a real bummer. You say I'm not very sharp, that's funny.

Your position is circular, you really don't have anything to justify it. That you don't recognise it doesn't change that fact.
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03-01-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 04:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 03:35 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Existence - the universe and it's catalyst.
Evidence - to account for existence (see above if you're getting lost)
Natural - anything that we can obtain as evidence (once again see above if you're getting lost here).

"Tell me, what [to account for existence] do you have to suggest that we're getting closer to finding relevant [to account for existence] to [the universe and it's catalyst] being a a purely [anything that we can obtain as evidence] process."


Okay... Consider

So you're arguing that because we don't have 100% complete information, therefor your belief in the entirely unsubstantiated is justified?

So it's just a wordier version of "You don't know, therefore (insert my bullshit here)".

And we're the stupid ones? Right... Drinking Beverage

Well that wasn't worth wading through the fluff throughout your post.

You have no evidence to validate naturalism as a explanatory conclusion. Thank you.

You just assume I'm a theist as an attempt to validate your own assumption. Well 'your' perspective is worse than mine as unfortunately for you I'm not a theist, and I don't insert any bullshit there (Including philosophical naturalism).

Evidence may work bitch, but only if you have some. That you think I'm trying to justify a god is your own hangup, not a fault in my position. I haven't claimed anything, particularly as self-contradictory as philosophical naturalism.

Once again try not to get mad, please write something with some semblance of value. If you claim not to consider philosophical naturalism to be true, then don't push evidence (which is fundamentally lacking) to answering the riddle of existence, assuming just makes you as fundamental as other beliefs.
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03-01-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 05:08 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Brownsleeves: What's the agenda?

Bozo: What's the ideology?

The agenda of atheism is to have your cake and eat it too. That is, makes claims about truth (i.e the natural is all there is) and then slip back in the slippery lack of belief position. It's transparent as fuck, most honest people would want nothing to do with it. This is why the neo-atheist group will never have much support, you've become what you're against.

Many people I know who aren't religious want nothing to do with the neo-atheism espoused by Dawkins, Harris etc. Those who do, are so stridently in their views that they're just another group pushing a 'correct' way of thinking, and people think they're nuts as well.

Those atheists who live in a religiously dominant area, I feel sorry for and can understand their need for support. However, these people are not the vocal majority on atheist forums.
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03-01-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 05:33 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 03:45 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Yes that's because experience has shown that atheists, will state as much as possible but suddenly disappear when called upon to back their claims of the natural being all there is. This is primarily because of the dependence on evidence (or lack) to disprove religion, bit of a tangled web there huh? Unfortunately, there's no evidence for naturalism either. If there was some evidence which would rationalise a natural existence then you'd have something. The use of analogies misses the point here.


So why join a devout group like atheism? You could join a theist group as well?


Mainly as i don't believe atheists are intellectual honest, and want the appearance of it rather than actual honesty. The agenda of atheists is too strong.

So you're no different in being Intellectually dishonest and having too strong an agenda as well. Then you're going to go nowhere by your current paths if your assumptions are true. What is joining a group?

Are you just going to ignore anyones points to what bucks your claim of atheists. What would it take me to say or demonstrate that would make you not blindly disbelieve my position of not believing a definitive belief in naturalism?

I'm devout in that you or I have no idea, that's my agenda. You claim to be justified in looking for answers, I'm not criticising that., I'm criticising that' you've assumed an answer without evidence for it. Sounds a very theistic concept huh?

This forum is a group, where you can find like-minded fundies to affirm how right you are in your baseless assertions. Christians go to church, you come here.

For me to stop thinking that would require you to stop making statement like "hen you're going to go nowhere by your current paths if your assumptions are true". This implies your assertion is true. I have no issue with searching for truth, but claiming truth without evidence for it is bullshit.
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03-01-2015, 08:48 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-01-2015 09:11 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  You said the c word again, you are naughty.

Tell me a good again how you justify your naturalism? i could do with a laugh.

I could keep telling you over and over, as everyone else already has also. But since you have demonstrated that your white supremacist views greatly inhibit your ability to understand, then you are intellectually incapable of any semblance of comprehension.

Brownshirt:

1. A Nazi, especially a storm trooper.
2. A racist, especially a violent, right-wing one.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Brownshirts

Brownshirts are the New Black:

The Sturmabteilung or SA "Brownshirts."

You are exhibiting an extremely offensive position on this forum, because I am a historian, and I damn well know everything about the Brownshirts.

You don't belong here.


Lol, being an historian actually requires work, not the ability to enter words into google.

No historian would make a claim of " I damn well know everything about the Brownshirts". I wonder how I would know that?
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03-01-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 01:31 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Atheism is a position with assumptions...

There may be a few, but the majority of atheists, like myself, do not assume anything. I do not assume that a god (or GOD, depending on how you roll) does not exist. But by the very definition of GOD given by most theists, its existence is unprovable and must be taken on faith alone. The ultimate assumption.

You add more value to not assuming some things, such as not believing in a god, as opposed to not believing in a purely naturalistic existence.

Perhaps that's derived from conflict with theists, you need to adjust your position there.
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03-01-2015, 09:02 PM
RE: Atheism is a position with assumptions...
(03-01-2015 08:48 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 09:21 AM)Free Wrote:  I could keep telling you over and over, as everyone else already has also. But since you have demonstrated that your white supremacist views greatly inhibit your ability to understand, then you are intellectually incapable of any semblance of comprehension.

Brownshirt:

1. A Nazi, especially a storm trooper.
2. A racist, especially a violent, right-wing one.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Brownshirts

Brownshirts are the New Black:

The Sturmabteilung or SA "Brownshirts."

You are exhibiting an extremely offensive position on this forum, because I am a historian, and I damn well know everything about the Brownshirts.

You don't belong here.


Lol, being an historian actually requires work, not the ability to enter words into google.

No historian would make a claim of " I damn well know everything about the Brownshirts". I wonder how I would know that?

You don't know anything. Your lack of reasoning demonstrates an inferior capacity to adequately comprehend basic logistical methods. It probably has something to do with the low quality gene pool you were born into.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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