Atheism is blessed and holy hatred against all non-existing gods
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04-01-2017, 03:57 PM
RE: Atheism is blessed and holy hatred against all non-existing gods
(03-01-2017 08:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Honestly, Shai, I feel great sympathy for you and my Beloved; she gets red-faced furious when she hears fellow Christians making those stupid arguments.

"STOP MAKING US LOOK STUPID!"

She stopped reading this forum over my shoulder after I asked for her advice a few times on how to phrase things, and her retorts to guys like Borg were... well, let's just say I try to be a bit more professional than that, even while calling him an idiot.

Edit to Add: To be fair, I should add that I agree with Matt Dillahunty that it's equally bad when atheists make bad anti-theism arguments, like the "definition of words that conflict with one another" paradoxes, or making claims about "problems" in the Bible that aren't actually what the Bible is saying, there. (Plenty of other actual scriptural problems to address... why resort to stupid ones that just convince Christians you have no idea what you're talking about?) Since preachers so often like to portray us as ignorant and/or "just angry at God" (or whatever), it rankles me when our side does it, too. Fortunately, I think it's a million times more common on your side of the aisle.

I will sadly concede it is much more common on our side of the aisle. Though have to admit my inner social scientist wants to know if that's more of an artifact of numbers being on our side, or if it's the general education level and also general knowledge of Scripture as well (being lower on the theistic side as a whole in both cases). Having seen rather concrete stuff on how atheists know the Bible better usually, it wouldn't surprise me if that was a major contributing factor to why such fallacious arguments are less common on that side of things, though of course, still not entirely snuffed out.

And I feel her pain! You should get her to make an account and...interact...with some of the drive by folks... Tongue

Need to think of a witty signature.
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04-01-2017, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2017 05:38 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Atheism is blessed and holy hatred against all non-existing gods
(04-01-2017 03:57 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 08:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Honestly, Shai, I feel great sympathy for you and my Beloved; she gets red-faced furious when she hears fellow Christians making those stupid arguments.

"STOP MAKING US LOOK STUPID!"

She stopped reading this forum over my shoulder after I asked for her advice a few times on how to phrase things, and her retorts to guys like Borg were... well, let's just say I try to be a bit more professional than that, even while calling him an idiot.

Edit to Add: To be fair, I should add that I agree with Matt Dillahunty that it's equally bad when atheists make bad anti-theism arguments, like the "definition of words that conflict with one another" paradoxes, or making claims about "problems" in the Bible that aren't actually what the Bible is saying, there. (Plenty of other actual scriptural problems to address... why resort to stupid ones that just convince Christians you have no idea what you're talking about?) Since preachers so often like to portray us as ignorant and/or "just angry at God" (or whatever), it rankles me when our side does it, too. Fortunately, I think it's a million times more common on your side of the aisle.

I will sadly concede it is much more common on our side of the aisle. Though have to admit my inner social scientist wants to know if that's more of an artifact of numbers being on our side, or if it's the general education level and also general knowledge of Scripture as well (being lower on the theistic side as a whole in both cases). Having seen rather concrete stuff on how atheists know the Bible better usually, it wouldn't surprise me if that was a major contributing factor to why such fallacious arguments are less common on that side of things, though of course, still not entirely snuffed out.

And I feel her pain! You should get her to make an account and...interact...with some of the drive by folks... Tongue

I think a lot of it has to do with the deck being stacked by religion's "default" status. Being an atheist, in most of the English-speaking-world, more often than not represents a significant split with one own's history, traditions, family, friends, and/or society. This is not something that's taken likely, and people who go through that often only do so in response to the sort of overwhelmingly powerful insight that they've tried, at length, to deny or find holes in. They are then often barraged with all manner of argument, pleading, cajoling, criticism, threats, or "evidence" from the believers they have distinguished themselves from. Additionally, we are on average much more aware of the details of Christianity than Christians are about the mindsets of atheists, simply because Christianity is far more visible, less closeted, and more pervasive. It's damn hard to miss, far easier to spot both its good spots and its blemishes, and almost impossible to be ignorant of it. People who deconvert in a society where atheism is a minority tend to have good, thorough, well-considered reasons for doing so. (Not universal, but definitely a trend.)

In contrast, atheism (in societies where Christianity is the default) is less understood. It's far easier to straw-man, misrepresent, or slander, because most everyone (including the speaker) has a limited perspective on it. Very little effort needs to be done in order to prop up Christianity, because it already has an advantage. Many Christians do NOT do an in-depth study of either Christianity or the broader theological or apologetic traditions, because they're living in it by default. Often this comes coupled with a desire to be in the religion because that's socially comfortable, and in many cases avoids the hard uncomfortable truths because they clash with the fundamental nature of their beliefs. Everything from never examining countervailing positions, to constructing and listening to comfortable stories of atheists who got shown the light, without a critical examination of just how uncommon that is or why it happened. Your typical modern Christian doesn't have good arguments because they don't NEED or WANT good arguments... and thus, also, doesn't know how to tell the difference between a good argument and utter crap. (Again, far from universal, but still a definite trend.)

We can't really say the two are analogous to each other due to the qualitative differences. Atheism, for example, does not have a theology to be ignorant of. But it's easy to imagine that on this basis ALONE, atheists will have a massive advantage over Christians in argumentation. Due just to Christianity being the default position (in a social sense, at least), atheists have often had far more practice, have been exposed to and examined arguments for and against far more critically and from both sides of the divide, and often know firsthand what arguments are effective or not... because those are the arguments that affected them. And in the other corner, we have your typical everyday Christian, who's... never really had to fight for it, hasn't really watched a typical fight for it, and has seen several atypical or outright fake fights and thought that this was how it works.

Yeesh. Talk about your mismatches.

Of course, it also helps that one position is fundamentally WEAKER than the other. Wink

EDIT: To clarify, when I'm talking about religion and specifically Christianity being the default, I mean it socially. This is the box people end up checking if they just go with the flow of the society around them.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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05-01-2017, 05:00 AM
RE: Atheism is blessed and holy hatred against all non-existing gods
Fuck me dead! BlinkOhmyWeeping

(02-01-2017 10:35 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 10:32 PM)Fireball Wrote:  I wasn't first to respond...
[Image: D5Gsn7X.jpg]

Yeah, it is time to think hard, Pickard.


Are you that woman who is the spinal column and head???


(02-01-2017 10:53 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 10:41 PM)pablo Wrote:  You're a Censored idiot Borg.

you are disrespectful.

Yeah but even you have to admit, you're kind of crazy. Either that or a POE.

Nobody fucking cares anyway dickhead.


(02-01-2017 10:57 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 10:12 PM)theBorg Wrote:  holy hatred
Holy what now? Granted, the Bible does give a list of things God hates, but still...actually let me just quote Proverbs 6:16-19:

Quote:There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

None of these seem to be the vibe of "holy hatred" I seem to be getting from your post. Maybe it's just me though. Why would you hate someone for their beliefs, or lack there of? How does the energy required for that and the mental state it induces fit with the instructions of the prophet Micah (6:8), to love justice and kindness, and to walk humbly with God?

The post also makes me think of a rough draft I've been working on of something, going to quote the relevant bit below:

Quote:Deus Vult/ were two words that launched the Crusades under the direction of Pope Urban II. "God wills it" in English, a phrase that seems unlikely to be linked to Christian violence in the modern era. One would assume that in the twenty-first century, the idea of violence inspired by hating another in the name of the God of the Bible would be nearly non-existent. That assumption would be, for many of those discussed in the following pages, a lethal mistake.

Shai. Get your shit together mate. This god of yours is a fucking monster!

Did you actually read this load of shit? (Italics mine)

Quote:There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Mate, he hates himself! Read it again.

He hates wicked schemes, but scripture says everything is predestined. I can quote the scripture, but do any of these poor bastards need to read it???

For fuck's sake!
FacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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05-01-2017, 07:19 AM
RE: Atheism is blessed and holy hatred against all non-existing gods
(04-01-2017 03:57 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  I will sadly concede it is much more common on our side of the aisle. Though have to admit my inner social scientist wants to know if that's more of an artifact of numbers being on our side, or if it's the general education level and also general knowledge of Scripture as well (being lower on the theistic side as a whole in both cases). Having seen rather concrete stuff on how atheists know the Bible better usually, it wouldn't surprise me if that was a major contributing factor to why such fallacious arguments are less common on that side of things, though of course, still not entirely snuffed out.

And I feel her pain! You should get her to make an account and...interact...with some of the drive by folks... Tongue

I've tried; she won't even read the forum over my shoulder, anymore.

She's the type to avoid confrontation at all costs... though she's a wizard at slinging underhand barbs, especially if you leave yourself open.

It used to be a highlight of her visits here (or me there), when she would sit beside me and make comments about forum posts I showed her.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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