Atheism is religion by another name
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16-09-2012, 12:12 AM
 
Atheism is religion by another name
Y'all have more "shoulds" in you vocabulary than a Baptist minister protesting an Act Up rally. Lecture_preist

If atheism is true; if there really is no universal "should" handed down by a creator, then just keep your damn opinions to yourself. You can't argue for good and deny God, it's not rational--it's not logical. It's hot air.

So, if you can't pay my bills or kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do.
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16-09-2012, 12:21 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2012 01:18 AM by nach_in.)
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
are you serious?

The idea that there isn't an universal moral law doesn't mean there's no possible morality. It's based on the fact that we live in societies and we need each other in order to improve our lives, without it you probably wouldn't even had bills to pay as you wouldn't have services to pay for, and you'd probably get your ass kicked every time by other humans or wild beasts.

We all enjoy the benefits of society therefore we have to contribute to it, this is what's called "doing good" from a secular point of view. And it's not only rational, is way more rational than basing your ideas of morality in a weird universal consciousness thingy for which there's not a single bit of evidence.

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16-09-2012, 12:32 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 12:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  Y'all have more "shoulds" in you vocabulary than a Baptist minister protesting an Act Up rally. Lecture_preist

If atheism is true; if there really is no universal "should" handed down by a creator, then just keep your damn opinions to yourself. You can't argue for good and deny God, it's not rational--it's not logical. It's hot air.

So, if you can't pay my bills or kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do.

I have maybe what about 50 posts so far contributed to this site, I challenge you simply to quote a single "should" out of any of them that remotely argues against doing good simply for the sake of doing good without a bias pendulum of biblical contradictions and fairy tales. I also implore you take advantage of a high school diplomat.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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16-09-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
C'mon Egor, my friend, I know you enjoy being contentious (me too occasionally) but really?

If you have some sources / blog / books etc. that are in this vein of "shouldness" please give us some links and we can all give opinions ... and you know by now, I hope, that the people on this site are evidence that there is no such thing as an Atheist Worldview... so you will get different opinions.

Look at an ISO publication (International Standards) and you will find lots of "should"s and "shall"s.
Atheism is not a Standard or even a Best Practice Framework and certainly not a doctrine or dogma.

nach-in touched on the issue here... are you really asking about the shoulds and shalls of secular morality/ethics?

If you are referring to something on this forum, I concur with Matthew, above, I have not seen it either. Please give us a link if you have something specific in mind.

Cheers, DLJ.

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16-09-2012, 01:20 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
So Egor, you are right.
I don't ask you questions any more.
I leave you alone with your little threat, until he falls down to page 200, in the abyss of the oblivion.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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16-09-2012, 01:24 AM
 
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 12:21 AM)nach_in Wrote:  are you serious?

The idea that there isn't an universal moral law doesn't mean there's no possible morality.

You're absolutely right. There is all kinds of morality. In fact, the equation would be:

# of moral codes = # of living human beings.

And that means there is no moral code binding on any one person other than their own.

Quote:The idea that there isn't an universal moral law doesn't mean there's no possible morality. It's based on the fact that we live in societies and we need each other in order to improve our lives, without it you probably wouldn't even had bills to pay as you wouldn't have services to pay for, and you'd probably get your ass kicked every time by other humans or wild beasts.


That's how it used to be. That's how it is in some places. Sure there is mutual agreement, but where there is no law (that is imposed legal morality) there is no civilization. We have to invent the rules and then enforce them with guns to make it work. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's just morality at the point of a gun.

So, again, if you don't pay my bills and can't kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do. All your should's mean nothing--if there is no ultimate "should."


Quote:We all enjoy the benefits of society therefore we have to contribute to it,

So I guess that's atheist rule #1. You better get a gun to enforce it.


Quote:this is what's called "doing good" from a secular point of view.


Call it good if you want, it's not good if there's nothing to compare it to. It sounds like an arbitrary rule that you want to enforce. I think no one should eat pork. If I had a handful of hydrogen bombs, I might be able to enforce that rule over a large area. I call that good.

Quote:And it's not only rational, is way more rational than basing your ideas of morality in a weird universal consciusness consciousness thingy for which there's not a single bit of evidence.

"universal consciusness consciousness thingy"

And to think you're telling me what I should do. Again, if there is no God giving the ultimate rule(s), then there is no criteria by which to call something good. It's that simple.
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16-09-2012, 01:33 AM
 
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 12:32 AM)Matthew Laramore Wrote:  I have maybe what about 50 posts so far contributed to this site, I challenge you simply to quote a single "should" out of any of them that remotely argues against doing good simply for the sake of doing good without a bias pendulum of biblical contradictions and fairy tales. I also implore you take advantage of a high school diplomat.

What's a high school diplomat?

And what is good for goodness sake? That doesn't even make sense. What makes something good? In an atheist world, things simply are one way or the other for no moral reason whatsoever.

(16-09-2012 01:15 AM)DLJ Wrote:  C'mon Egor, my friend, I know you enjoy being contentious (me too occasionally) but really?

I'm just keeping it real.


Quote:If you have some sources / blog / books etc. that are in this vein of "shouldness" please give us some links and we can all give opinions ... and you know by now, I hope, that the people on this site are evidence that there is no such thing as an Atheist Worldview... so you will get different opinions.

That's all I want. I want the atheists to admit they have no basis for calling any action good or bad and simply state the truth (from their belief system) that doing "good" is impossible. You can make up right and wrong and enforce right with a gun, but you can't make anything good without a moral absolute, which would have to be Divine in origin.


(16-09-2012 01:20 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  So Egor, you are right.

Thank you.
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16-09-2012, 01:40 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Congratulations on passing Philosophy 101, please feel free to be pretentious and "deep" whenever you please. If you wish to cease being annoying to every single person you meet, please take a maths or engineering course. Thank you, and have a nice day.




What you're saying isn't new, or deep, or interesting. Hate to be rude, but hey, I have a gun.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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16-09-2012, 01:44 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 01:24 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 12:21 AM)nach_in Wrote:  are you serious?

The idea that there isn't an universal moral law doesn't mean there's no possible morality.

You're absolutely right. There is all kinds of morality. In fact, the equation would be:

# of moral codes = # of living human beings.

And that means there is no moral code binding on any one person other than their own.

Quote:The idea that there isn't an universal moral law doesn't mean there's no possible morality. It's based on the fact that we live in societies and we need each other in order to improve our lives, without it you probably wouldn't even had bills to pay as you wouldn't have services to pay for, and you'd probably get your ass kicked every time by other humans or wild beasts.


That's how it used to be. That's how it is in some places. Sure there is mutual agreement, but where there is no law (that is imposed legal morality) there is no civilization. We have to invent the rules and then enforce them with guns to make it work. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's just morality at the point of a gun.

So, again, if you don't pay my bills and can't kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do. All your should's mean nothing--if there is no ultimate "should."


Quote:We all enjoy the benefits of society therefore we have to contribute to it,

So I guess that's atheist rule #1. You better get a gun to enforce it.


Quote:this is what's called "doing good" from a secular point of view.


Call it good if you want, it's not good if there's nothing to compare it to. It sounds like an arbitrary rule that you want to enforce. I think no one should eat pork. If I had a handful of hydrogen bombs, I might be able to enforce that rule over a large area. I call that good.

Quote:And it's not only rational, is way more rational than basing your ideas of morality in a weird universal consciusness consciousness thingy for which there's not a single bit of evidence.

"universal consciusness consciousness thingy"

And to think you're telling me what I should do. Again, if there is no God giving the ultimate rule(s), then there is no criteria by which to call something good. It's that simple.

You're mistaking morality with law. The rules given by this alleged god wouldn't be moral rules, they would be divine law, as he would be enforcing them (btw, I don't see any god enforcing any rule so that's kind of a proof there's no divine morality in the sense you claim)
The only incentive for moral normative rules is the individual drive to do good, it's socially constructed and passed on by education.


Quote:
Quote:this is what's called "doing good" from a secular point of view.


Call it good if you want, it's not good if there's nothing to compare it to. It sounds like an arbitrary rule that you want to enforce. I think no one should eat pork. If I had a handful of hydrogen bombs, I might be able to enforce that rule over a large area. I call that good.

I was trying to say that contributing to society for everyone welfare is called "good" compared to just obeying a bunch of rule. If you cared to read full paragraphs that I put an effort to make and that convey an idea, instead of just dismembering them so it's easier for you to come up with witty come back, you would've understood that.

Quote:And to think you're telling me what I should do. Again, if there is no God giving the ultimate rule(s), then there is no criteria by which to call something good. It's that simple.

I wasn't telling you what to believe, I was making a comparison of the rational value between two different ideas: the secular morality based on facts I described and the theistic morality based on faith you defend.

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16-09-2012, 01:48 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 01:33 AM)Egor Wrote:  That's all I want. I want the atheists to admit they have no basis for calling any action good or bad and simply state the truth (from their belief system) that doing "good" is impossible. You can make up right and wrong and enforce right with a gun, but you can't make anything good without a moral absolute, which would have to be Divine in origin.

Ok. But for me, it's not an admission, it's an assertion!

However, there are degrees of goodness and badness as defined by our social and legal systems etc. For example, I think it is a bad thing to take another human life at times of peace, without their consent. There is consensus on this so it becomes law. If you disagree with me, I have to decide how and how far I want you to be removed from me (or me from you).

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