Atheism is religion by another name
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16-09-2012, 03:04 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 12:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  Y'all have more "shoulds" in you vocabulary than a Baptist minister protesting an Act Up rally. Lecture_preist

Ummmm What are you talking about?

Quote:If atheism is true; if there really is no universal "should" handed down by a creator, then just keep your damn opinions to yourself. You can't argue for good and deny God, it's not rational--it's not logical. It's hot air.

"The point I am concerned with is that, if you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, then you are then in this situation: is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good." - Bertrand Russell

Quote:So, if you can't pay my bills or kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do.
Consider Who ever is telling you how to act, is allowed to make their opinion, but you don't have to follow any of it.

Also what good would beating you into submission or paying your way do, if it never really changed your mind?

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16-09-2012, 03:04 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 02:30 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 02:06 AM)nach_in Wrote:  "Good" is a judgement, an assertion about an action that is coherent with the prevailing moral values of a society. Said values are constructed over time based on the collective experience or history of that society and are not universal or immutable, as they differ from a society to another and, within a society, over time.

That's how I think of morality, is that enough definition?

Edit: for clarification:
"Good" or "goodness" is not a property of nature or natural phenomena and does not exist independently of human societies. Is a social fact, in other words, a concept that humans come up with from their interactions with other humans. Also, this social construct, is generally regarded as desirable for the usefulness it has for coordinating collective and individual behaviour to achieve objectives that otherwise couldn't be achieved.

Finally. It only took ten minutes of waterboarding, but we finally get to the truth. I think what you have stated is the truth if atheism is true.

So, do you think we have free will? From an atheist point of view that is.

what does free will has to do with this? are you saying that if we live in a deterministic universe then moral responsibility is absurd? Like we could make it different! we are in a deterministic universe in that hypothesis! what does the concept of anything has to do with anything for that matter?

If we have free will, then we can make choices for our own actions, if those actions differ from the moral values then social sanctions are applied to the culprit, because that's how the society in question think it's best.


you're concerned about the universality of moral values, well, I'm sorry to tell you moral values are not universal, not even human rights are a part of human nature, they're just an emergent concept that raised as a moral baseline for the international society of the XX century.

And that pragmatic consensus is what constitute the rules for which actions are judged good or bad.

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16-09-2012, 03:17 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Whatever.

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16-09-2012, 03:44 AM
 
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
I'm satisfied with the answers I've read in this string: If atheism is true, morality is relative and there is no ultimate good. There is in fact only collective opinions that are forced upon the individual.

So, when atheists use the word "should" they are acting religiously, because should implies a universal good that everyone should be aware of--just like the religions do when they use the word should.

Atheism is religion by another name.
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16-09-2012, 03:52 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2012 04:29 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 03:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  I'm satisfied with the answers I've read in this string: If atheism is true, morality is relative and there is no ultimate good. There is in fact only collective opinions that are forced upon the individual.

So, when atheists use the word "should" they are acting religiously, because should implies a universal good that everyone should be aware of--just like the religions do when they use the word should.

Atheism is religion by another name.

So we would have to use ought instead of should to avoid being religious by some rules you found/made up?

That was an equivocation fallacy. Sorry!

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16-09-2012, 04:12 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 03:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  I'm satisfied with the answers I've read in this string: If atheism is true, morality is relative and there is no ultimate good. There is in fact only collective opinions that are forced upon the individual.

So, when atheists use the word "should" they are acting religiously, because should implies a universal good that everyone should be aware of--just like the religions do when they use the word should.

Atheism is religion by another name.
Atheism has nothing to do with morality. It deals solely with the question of whether or not there is one or more deities. That being said, even with god, there is no ultimate good. Different religions with different gods have different moral values that are, for them, the 'ultimate good'. How do you determine which one of them is right?

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16-09-2012, 04:14 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 03:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  I'm satisfied with the answers I've read in this string: If atheism is true, morality is relative and there is no ultimate good. There is in fact only collective opinions that are forced upon the individual.

So, if atheists use the words "should" they are acting religiously, because should implies a universal good that everyone should be aware of--just like the religions do when they use the word "should".

Then Atheism is religion by another name.

Fixed.

Except, once again repeating myself-yself-self-elf-lf-f...
International standards of conduct, ethics etc. also use the words "should" and "shall" in no religious sense.

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16-09-2012, 04:30 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
I'm OK with atheism being a religion - if you define for me what you mean by religion?

But we worship no Gods, we give no allegiance to "the substance of things not seen" or whatever the applicable verse is. By *my* definition of religion, we are not religious.
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16-09-2012, 06:01 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2012 11:39 AM by Dom.)
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Quote:if you don't pay my bills and can't kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do.

Does that mean if I pay your bills and kick your ass I can tell you what to do? Evil_monster

Humans, well, the great majority of humans, come equipped with empathy. That's a fact. We are able to identify with others.

Empathy and the widely accepted golden rule form the basis of morality.

Even if I were so inclined, and able to do so, I would not kill my neighbor and take all his possessions because I wouldn't want to have it happen to me next. It's not the world most people would want to live in. So people gang up on those who would do such things. That would happen with or without gods or laws. It's just logical.

Likewise, a starving neighbor triggers empathy and I would send food over there. It's also a bonus to me if I do, because then I have an able bodied neighbor who will be able and willing to do the same and other beneficial things for me. That also happens without gods or laws. It's just logical.

Thankfully we are far enough up the social evolution ladder to be in such a state of mind. In the times of the first and second testament, people were not near as socially evolved and leadership by gods or laws was very necessary to support a sort of peaceful society. That's why religion gained foothold in the first place. Thankfully, we now don't need it anymore and logic alone can provide for a peaceful coexistance - which you call morality.

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16-09-2012, 06:26 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Humans practically have an instinct to moralize. Religion is confinement of said tendency to dogmatic forms. Egor musta been checking out that Atheism + bullshit. Big Grin

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