Atheism is religion by another name
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16-09-2012, 06:14 PM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
I was hoping you were going to expose the secret to the magic hat trick to him.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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16-09-2012, 07:31 PM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Alright I'll bite the bait. Here you go Egor, good/bad without god.

Quote:You can't argue for good and deny God, it's not rational--it's not logical. It's hot air

Sure I can.

Quote:That's how it used to be. That's how it is in some places. Sure there is mutual agreement, but where there is no law (that is imposed legal morality) there is no civilization. We have to invent the rules and then enforce them with guns to make it work. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's just morality at the point of a gun.

So, again, if you don't pay my bills and can't kick my ass, don't tell me what I should do. All your should's mean nothing--if there is no ultimate "should."

So you're going down the typical "there's no morality without God" route?
Well sir, let me introduce my friends cause and effect.

I do action A which leads to action B. ie: We both live in a cave in the caveman era, it is in our best interest to work together as we have greater chance of survival (we can hunt bigger animals, we can do different tasks to get things done quicker etc..).
This is certainly not killing each other but rather two people co-existing happily together, without Gods morals.
Say person A then decides to kill person B, person A has to think of the effect of that. Nobody is going to want to partner up with him because he's now known to kill off his partners, so life will become increasingly difficult for that caveman.

Quote:So I guess that's atheist rule #1. You better get a gun to enforce it.

No. Again it's the same dilemma as the cavemen. It is in my best interest to pay for taxes as it pays for vital services that I may use such as roads, hospitals, education. Even if I no longer go to school it is in my interest that I still pay for education (through my taxes) as that grows the next generation of doctors or whatever that benefit society and myself.

Quote:Call it good if you want, it's not good if there's nothing to compare it to. It sounds like an arbitrary rule that you want to enforce. I think no one should eat pork. If I had a handful of hydrogen bombs, I might be able to enforce that rule over a large area. I call that good.

And so it is in peoples best interest to then remove you of those hydrogen bombs because you're clearly a bit fucked in the head.
So the effect of that would be you getting your head blown off my pork eating extremists.

Quote:And to think you're telling me what I should do. Again, if there is no God giving the ultimate rule(s), then there is no criteria by which to call something good. It's that simple.

Good is suggestive anyway.
Today good would be defined as something that is helpful which all comes back to what I've just said.
So, the caveman working with the other caveman would be a good thing because the end result is more food, higher security etc.. aka, more 'benefit' (benefit being a unit of measurement in this case).
So simply put, one does not need your god to be a good person.

Criminals for example. It is in societies best interest to punish criminals because it is in societies best interest to make things illegal. Such as stealing, murder etc..

Quote:That's all I want. I want the atheists to admit they have no basis for calling any action good or bad and simply state the truth (from their belief system) that doing "good" is impossible.

Well I just explained to you the system in which we gain our "morals" of which did not require some invisible fuck in the sky.

Quote:Me, too. So if we lived next to each other, we would be respectful because we wouldn't want a gunfight. But that's not us being good.

Again, I ask, what is "good"? As an atheist, you have to admit there is no such thing as good.

Yes it is, that is exactly what being good is. Good is doing something that produces 'benefit'. So you and your neighbor not shooting each other is good because it is a mutually beneficial thing.
Making rape illegal is a mutually beneficial thing because rape is something that causes 'drawbacks'. People need to be able to walk around knowing they're not going to get raped. And so by enforcing it and punishing those that do it you deter others which produces 'benefit'.

Quote:So, do you think we have free will? From an atheist point of view that is.

free will to do good or bad things? Of course we do, but with our actions we know comes effect. So if I decide to kill someone (completely my choice) then I know I'd be punished because murder is in the collective best interest of society to make illegal.

Quote:And there is no good without God.

Yes there is, I just explained it.

Quote:In other words, if we put all pedophiles on an island (Call it...Neverland). If we put all pedophiles on Neverland, and they had children (because some are women), and on that island they regularly made the children perform sex acts with adults, and in fact raised them to do that, what would you say?

Would they be right or wrong?

It is in the collective interest of society to make pedophilia illegal as many children are extremely mentally scared because of it. Plus it is in societies best interest to protect children as 1) they typically cannot protect themselves 2) Bit more cliche, they're the future.
In your example of a world where pedophilia was normal well then I don't know. It would depend on the outcome. If children are scared by the experience and it effects them in a negative way then no it's not a good thing. But if everyone is grown up like that and it has no mental scaring like what happens today etc.. then to those people it would be a good thing.

Quote:There is in fact only collective opinions that are forced upon the individual.

They're not forced. They're enforced.
Nobody is forced to do this that or the other. But certain things are enforced because it is in the interest to do so.

Quote:Atheism is religion by another name.

Atheism is to religion as what not collecting stamps is to hobbies.

Quote:Atheism has traditionally meant the belief that there is no God. These days, you try to get away from the illogic of stating there is no God and redefine atheism to mean simply a lack of belief, as if you were a garden slug of some kind. But that's just word-wrangling. It's evasion

Oh that's rich coming from you Mr "God is everything"

Quote:Atheism is faith.

Facepalm.







Yea I don't get it.
You call us atheists out as "garden slugs" because

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16-09-2012, 09:02 PM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
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16-09-2012, 09:39 PM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Why do you guys feed the troll?

It's clear that Egor bathes in the attention you give him.

I mean this is the umpteenth time that he's recycled the same old atheism is religion angle, and you guys devote all of this time refuting it even though it's already been refuted repeatedly.

Egor - you're like a way sadder version of Jake La Motta in Raging Bull. Your belief in God has taken an absolute beating ever since you joined this forum and yet you like to come around every so often to show off how we never knocked you out/down.

Congratulations. You believe in God and atheism rubs you the wrong way. That makes you quite unique. Oh, wait. Actually, that makes you on par with about 5 billion other human beings or more living on Earth right now.

I'm glad that you've apparently moved past the more basic forms of theism, but it looks like you'll never get over your personal experiences that you interpret as direct interaction with god. I hope you do someday and perhaps move into a more deistic, non-dualistic approach to belief in god if not outright atheism.

If not, oh well. I supposed I'll have to continue contend with these "feed the troll" thread.

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16-09-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
We like the sound of our own voices. I thought that was self evident Big Grin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-09-2012, 12:14 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
(16-09-2012 02:01 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'm done fooling myself; in paradox there is truth.

A book that I think you'd like is called "Godel, Escher, Bach, an eternal golden braid", by... argh I can't remember the author, but google knows all. It's kinda all about this statement you just made. It's heavy going though. I made it to chapter 4 and my head exploded. Some day I'm gonna attempt the whole thing.
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17-09-2012, 01:23 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Yabut. Egor's a smart troll. With grammar. Tongue

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17-09-2012, 04:40 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
I love it so much when Egor starts threads like this one. Go for it Egor, you tell them! God damn heathens...

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17-09-2012, 06:19 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
Egor's assertions are like a long rogue thread on the front of a sweater. Someone is going to pull it, causing Egor and the sweater to fall apart and look like a fricken mess.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-09-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: Atheism is religion by another name
XD

I love you so much, Ed.

Welcome back.

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