Atheism is the only rational position to take
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14-08-2017, 12:52 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(13-08-2017 07:03 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 06:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  [God] Is a term that entails primarily a question about a belief in a created order, a moral, and meaningful order, that life contains a purpose, as opposed to view of life an inherently nihilistic.

That's a false dichotomy. A meaningful order can come into existence without any conscious intelligence behind it.

What if the meaningful order is disorder?

All of my gods are in a closet and they're unhappy because it is raining.

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14-08-2017, 03:52 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2017 03:58 AM by Tomasia.)
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(13-08-2017 10:13 PM)Astreja Wrote:  I can entertain the idea for the point of argument. At most one could arrive at some sort of pantheism, because the meaning would have to be vested in the substance of reality rather than through the auspices of a personal deity. The way I see it, any consciously "assigned" purpose would be delivered through the subjective perspective of the deity, and would be both tainted by the deity's perspective and never truly the property of the recipient.


You entertaining the idea for the point of argument, is unlikely to resemble the argument of anyone that actually holds that view. It would look a lot like hearing Ken Hovind arguing from the perspective of an atheist.

It’s odd to me that people who don’t understand what people mean when they say God, can then claim that they can argue from the perspective of believing one.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-08-2017, 06:11 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theist.

I'm pleased to give this quotation my personal award for the MOST ABSURD POSTING OF THE WEEK.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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14-08-2017, 06:41 AM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 06:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theist.

I'm pleased to give this quotation my personal award for the MOST ABSURD POSTING OF THE WEEK.

Sorry to break it you SYZ, if you subscribe to beliefs that conform to any variety of theism, you’re not an atheist, even if you want to try an identify as one.

To suggest otherwise is what’s truly absurd, like those 8% of self-identifying atheists, who claim to also believe in God.

By definition an atheist can’t subscribe to any form of theism.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-08-2017, 07:20 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2017 07:24 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Inherent meaning is a contradiction in terms. Meaning is a subjective value judgement made by an intelligence. Even if you are the creator of something, the fact that it has a particular meaning to you is still not inherent to it. It can have different meaning, or no meaning, to another intelligence. At best you can have an intended meaning.

Same with purpose.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-08-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 06:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theist.

I'm pleased to give this quotation my personal award for the MOST ABSURD POSTING OF THE WEEK.
The real problem with T's statement is the conflation of meaning with belief in deities.

I'd wager most atheists don't believe existence possesses inherent meaning and purpose (I certainly don't) but it really has nothing to do with the entirely separate question of whether belief should be afforded to the notion that gods exist. Indeed, there are theists who don't believe in an inherent meaning and purpose in existence. Just because a god exists doesn't define what it supposedly has or hasn't provided us with. A deity could just as well expect us to figure out our own meaning and purpose.

Then of course there is most of theism which schizophrenically says god will provide but also at the same time, god helps those who help themselves. They just switch aphorisms according to whether it looks at the moment like god is providing. Or ... more to the point of this thread, they will say god provides meaning and purpose and then will say that life is a beautiful tapestry god is in the process of weaving where we can't see all (or sometimes any) of the meaning of it until we reach the afterlife, as we lack the perspective as mere mortals to see the "weight of glory" which is eternal in nature. Or they'll say all meaning and purpose come from god, but that god is ineffable, unknowable (or seen only "through a glass darkly") and his ways past finding out, that we should embrace mystery and paradox, etc.
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14-08-2017, 07:45 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 07:41 AM)mordant Wrote:  Then of course there is most of theism which schizophrenically says god will provide but also at the same time, god helps those who help themselves.
Maybe that's how breatharians work? Like you buy all the food, but don't eat it, so you are helping yourself, but still waiting for god to provide nurishment?

"Help me lord"
"I only help those who help themselves"
"Ok, I've done it...now what?"
"see, you didn't need my help at all...."
"sonofabitch , he's done it again"

When life gives you lemons, just remember you are an....
(18-09-2017 09:47 AM)vahaaao Wrote:  Irresponsible bachelor daddy
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14-08-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Attributing meaning is a very tricky business. For example, even if "the bible" had an inherent meaning, it would be the concept of the bible that held the meaning, not any physical book. The book is just a collection of matter, arranged to appear a certain way.

I'd say it's sensible to say that one may intend meaning, and one can interpret meaning. There's nothing to stop the two being very different, nor are either "inherent" because that would mean it's impossible for it to mean anything else.

The opinions of sky fairies are not entwined into materials. What would that mean? God has signed his Lego bricks? Even if they were, like I said above, it's the emergent concepts that often carry the meaning anyway.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-08-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Why is it Theists start to get metaphysical about things after basically losing a standard argument?

Like it starts off all like "I know the bible is true", then you prove them wrong and it turns into "What is real and how to define that? If you say the word tree 100 times it loses all meaning, so how do we know what happiness is? what is right and wrong in the literal sense and who decides what that means?"

Seems like they try and side track the argument with this bullshit all the time.

When life gives you lemons, just remember you are an....
(18-09-2017 09:47 AM)vahaaao Wrote:  Irresponsible bachelor daddy
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14-08-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 07:41 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-08-2017 06:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm pleased to give this quotation my personal award for the MOST ABSURD POSTING OF THE WEEK.
The real problem with T's statement is the conflation of meaning with belief in deities.

I'd wager most atheists don't believe existence possesses inherent meaning and purpose (I certainly don't) but it really has nothing to do with the entirely separate question of whether belief should be afforded to the notion that gods exist. Indeed, there are theists who don't believe in an inherent meaning and purpose in existence. Just because a god exists doesn't define what it supposedly has or hasn't provided us with. A deity could just as well expect us to figure out our own meaning and purpose.

Then of course there is most of theism which schizophrenically says god will provide but also at the same time, god helps those who help themselves. They just switch aphorisms according to whether it looks at the moment like god is providing. Or ... more to the point of this thread, they will say god provides meaning and purpose and then will say that life is a beautiful tapestry god is in the process of weaving where we can't see all (or sometimes any) of the meaning of it until we reach the afterlife, as we lack the perspective as mere mortals to see the "weight of glory" which is eternal in nature. Or they'll say all meaning and purpose come from god, but that god is ineffable, unknowable (or seen only "through a glass darkly") and his ways past finding out, that we should embrace mystery and paradox, etc.

Also, it doesn't matter if someone believes a thing has inherent meaning or purpose, if they can't explain how that's a coherent statement. I would say it requires quite a twisting of those words to produce the desired result. I really don't get the obsession with wanting daddy's opinion about everything, and then trying to imprint it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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