Atheism is the only rational position to take
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14-08-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(12-08-2017 06:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 07:42 PM)natachan Wrote:  If you can't define a god then why should I give it any consideration? The same principal would apply. If it can't be defined then there is no reason to think it exists because sufficient evidence for its existence cannot be presented. I don't believe in any vague and unsubstantiated claim simply because it "can't be defined."


Well people have hard time defining a chair, but that doesn’t seem to be much of a reason to believe chairs don’t exist.

People don’t tend to go through life trying to define in dictionary terms every thing they believe in, and we don’t have as much trouble understanding what they mean

Atheists such as yourself seem bizarre, because it seems rather easy to me to understand what someone who believes in God means by God, even if not the God that I believe in. Either though I might struggle with trying to express that in words to someone who doesn’t understand it at all.


The only people who seem puzzled by the very meaning of God, seem to be atheists. Everyone seems to be okay. I don’t have trouble communicating about what’s meant by the term God, with my Muslim, or Hindu friends.

Who goes through life trying to define a chair?! Idiocy.

We're not puzzled by the definition of the generic term "god". We're puzzled with all the bullshit believers tack on to the definition. We're puzzled by the fact that there are as many definitions as there are believers, as well as not a damn bit of evidence for any of the definitions. Christians are always ranting about false gods, so whose word are we supposed to take?


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14-08-2017, 08:42 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 08:39 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Why is it Theists start to get metaphysical about things after basically losing a standard argument?

Like it starts off all like "I know the bible is true", then you prove them wrong and it turns into "What is real and how to define that? If you say the word tree 100 times it loses all meaning, so how do we know what happiness is? what is right and wrong in the literal sense and who decides what that means?"

Seems like they try and side track the argument with this bullshit all the time.

Yeah, I think this is generally called "scorched earth" tactics. If you won't let me have my woo for free, then no one can have anything ever. I blow everything up.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-08-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 07:03 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  That's a false dichotomy. A meaningful order can come into existence without any conscious intelligence behind it.

If you mean the order folks like Dawkins, and many other self professing atheists believe in, than order isn't meaningful, it's meaningless. To give meaning to a thing, requires things like foresight, the sort of qualities we attribute to designed things.

If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theists.

That may be your definition of meaningful.

And, help me, I agree with your second statement. Except that you're using meaning as another word for value. Value, as with purpose, is ascribed and requires context.
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14-08-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 03:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 10:13 PM)Astreja Wrote:  I can entertain the idea for the point of argument. At most one could arrive at some sort of pantheism, because the meaning would have to be vested in the substance of reality rather than through the auspices of a personal deity. The way I see it, any consciously "assigned" purpose would be delivered through the subjective perspective of the deity, and would be both tainted by the deity's perspective and never truly the property of the recipient.


You entertaining the idea for the point of argument, is unlikely to resemble the argument of anyone that actually holds that view. It would look a lot like hearing Ken Hovind arguing from the perspective of an atheist.

It’s odd to me that people who don’t understand what people mean when they say God, can then claim that they can argue from the perspective of believing one.

Maybe because at one time, most of us did believe, asshole.
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14-08-2017, 08:54 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 06:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-08-2017 06:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm pleased to give this quotation my personal award for the MOST ABSURD POSTING OF THE WEEK.

Sorry to break it you SYZ, if you subscribe to beliefs that conform to any variety of theism, you’re not an atheist, even if you want to try an identify as one.

Bullshit. This is just a convenient way to co-opt anything vaguely believed by any theist to claim that an atheist believes in god. Pathetic.
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14-08-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 06:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To suggest otherwise is what’s truly absurd, like those 8% of self-identifying atheists, who claim to also believe in God.

If this 8% exists, you're correct. But why do I get the feeling you, or some other believer, pulled this figure from their ass?
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14-08-2017, 09:09 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 03:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You entertaining the idea for the point of argument, is unlikely to resemble the argument of anyone that actually holds that view. It would look a lot like hearing Ken Hovind arguing from the perspective of an atheist.

Or Tomasia arguing that people who "believe in inherent meaning and purpose" actually believe in gods. Laugh out load

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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14-08-2017, 09:14 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2017 09:22 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theists.

I am an atheist who thinks existence possesses inherent purposes and meanings.

One essential component missing from this discussion is the discrimination between an absolute purpose and relative purposes. Theists do indeed typically believe in an absolute purpose and meaning: to worship God and glorify him forever or something similar. However, almost everyone understands relative purposes: to eat when you are hungry, to sleep when you are tired and so on. Food, a comfortable bed, a secure home, a loving mate and so on are NOT MEANINGLESS and humans pursuing them is NOT PURPOSELESS, even without a God to say so. These are purposes and meanings relative to our human biology -- not just made up concerns.

For theists to say atheists lack purpose and meaning is just their delightful way of dehumanizing us. For atheists to agree with such nonsense is a political misstep, to say the least.
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14-08-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(14-08-2017 09:14 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 08:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you identify as an atheist, but believe existence posses inherent meaning and purpose, in reality you're just a closeted theists.

I am an atheist who thinks existence possesses inherent purposes and meanings.

One essential component missing from this discussion is the discrimination between an absolute purpose and relative purposes. Theists do indeed typically believe in an absolute purpose and meaning: to worship God and glorify him forever or something similar. However, almost everyone understands relative purposes: to eat when you are hungry, to sleep when you are tired and so on. Food, a comfortable bed, a secure home, a loving mate and so on are NOT MEANINGLESS and humans pursuing them is NOT PURPOSELESS, even without a God to say so. These are purposes and meanings relative to our human biology -- not just made up concerns.

For theists to say atheists lack purpose and meaning is just their delightful way of dehumanizing us. For atheists to agree with such nonsense is a political misstep, to say the least.
I don't think theists typically are trying to define or even particularly acknowledge relative purpose. They are talking about "grand" purpose, some kind of bedrock purpose; and many of them have a tendency to shy away from any suggestion that what they subjectively experience as meaning / purpose is at all naturalistically explained and certainly not tied to primal drives and needs. That makes us too much like other animals -- not special and privileged (and worthy) enough.

Like you, I don't see purpose and meaning as particularly grand things, they are actually rather prosaic, and the reason we find them comforting or satisfying or grounding are to a large extent because they meet our primal drives and emotional needs (e.g., safety, belonging). Or ... we superimpose some meta-objective on them such that we gain mental satisfaction from delaying our most immediate needs out of empathy for our future selves, anticipating even greater rewards to be reaped down the line.

None of this requires that we be the heroes in an epic story starring us, where we're resonating with an Infinite Mind's overarching great scheme of things and thus winning the Mind's approval and affirmation and reward.

As usual when it comes to theistic ideology, it's a problem with not staying within our true scope as mortal humans and trying to make human endeavor something more than what it is.
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14-08-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
I see there are people who still dont have Tomasia on their ignore list. Drinking Beverage
Lets wait a little bit more... Laugh out load

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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