Atheism is the only rational position to take
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17-08-2017, 01:41 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-08-2017 03:09 PM)scott777 Wrote:  I’m new to this website and this thread seems like a good place to start, as I agree that atheism is the only rational position, and specifically that theism is not rational.

I’m happy to reconsider this position if any rational and convincing argument can be given for God. Whether it’s the so-called fine-tuning of the universe, or the existence of something from nothing, or the diversity of life on earth or whatever, nothing seems to demonstrate God any more than other rational explanations. In most cases God doesn’t even provide an explanation at all, not even a week one. It amounts to simply saying that it’s magic, period.

Natural laws must be the default position.

Welcome, and well said!

Well, they've had... since humans learned how to talk, and the very best arguments they have come up with are easily dismissed as fallacious. And in any case, arguments are not evidence.

And after all that... an argument is needed for why anyone should care. I've not heard anything that convinces me that I should. Just threats by proxy. I don't know why it's still socially acceptable to go around making terroristic threats to people, as long as you claim to be a spokesperson for an invisible lunatic.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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17-08-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-08-2017 04:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 09:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, the normal tendency to is to infer design, by inferring purpose. It’s why ToE often faces an uphill battle, often arguing against this very inclination, i.e Dawkins lecture on purpose.

If you observe qualities, that resemble elements of foresight, things that resemble what

That wasn’t my point. It wasn’t about whether or not the child’s conclusion is correct, but about the natural inclination and tendency to draw such conclusions.

The path in which your brain draws a correct conclusion in some instances, and wrong conclusions in other instances is not necessarily a different path.

A child’s brain is product of billions year of evolution configuring how it processes a variety of external stimuli. While it grows and matures as we grow older, we’re not particularly likely to undue the several billion years of work, that govern our processing tendencies in the 20, 30, 40 years you and I have in comparison.


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What??? I didn't "write" any of the stuff inside the Quote box. You are quoting yourself. And therefore your whole post is incoherent. Thanks for playing.
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17-08-2017, 10:40 AM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(17-08-2017 07:54 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 04:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That wasn’t my point. It wasn’t about whether or not the child’s conclusion is correct, but about the natural inclination and tendency to draw such conclusions.

The path in which your brain draws a correct conclusion in some instances, and wrong conclusions in other instances is not necessarily a different path.

A child’s brain is product of billions year of evolution configuring how it processes a variety of external stimuli. While it grows and matures as we grow older, we’re not particularly likely to undue the several billion years of work, that govern our processing tendencies in the 20, 30, 40 years you and I have in comparison.


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What??? I didn't "write" any of the stuff inside the Quote box. You are quoting yourself. And therefore your whole post is incoherent. Thanks for playing.


Sorry the formatting is off, and quoted my initial
Post instead of your response. The one you get to by clicking your name. It’s too late to correct it


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"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-08-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(17-08-2017 10:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 07:54 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What??? I didn't "write" any of the stuff inside the Quote box. You are quoting yourself. And therefore your whole post is incoherent. Thanks for playing.


Sorry the formatting is off, and quoted my initial
Post instead of your response. The one you get to by clicking your name. It’s too late to correct it


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In any event, my point remains: the conclusions that a child draws tell us nothing about truth. Children are very often wrong about things. Unlike most animals, which have well-developed instincts and can go off on their own relatively early in life, children need parental supervision for many years before they are competent to be on their own. That, too, is part of our evolution. If a child sees design in the world, so what?
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18-08-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(17-08-2017 11:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 10:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sorry the formatting is off, and quoted my initial
Post instead of your response. The one you get to by clicking your name. It’s too late to correct it


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In any event, my point remains: the conclusions that a child draws tell us nothing about truth. Children are very often wrong about things. Unlike most animals, which have well-developed instincts and can go off on their own relatively early in life, children need parental supervision for many years before they are competent to be on their own. That, too, is part of our evolution. If a child sees design in the world, so what?

Probably because children aren't so fucked up with brainwashing yet.
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18-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(18-08-2017 04:33 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(17-08-2017 11:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  In any event, my point remains: the conclusions that a child draws tell us nothing about truth. Children are very often wrong about things. Unlike most animals, which have well-developed instincts and can go off on their own relatively early in life, children need parental supervision for many years before they are competent to be on their own. That, too, is part of our evolution. If a child sees design in the world, so what?

Probably because children aren't so fucked up with brainwashing yet.
It's a notion put on a value of "purity" but purity has to be elaborated out as a concept before that is a actual good case.

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24-08-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-08-2017 10:17 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, "god" almost always agrees with each theist, while they disagree with each other. Each theist has a slightly different idea of what "god" is, even within the same sect of the same religion. And since none of them ever produce the slightest evidence that it's anything real, it's most likely that all these ideas are in fact imaginary.

Well firstly, God doesn't always agree with each theist. But I don't think that's the point. The point is that varying views of God doesn't mean some theists don't worship the same being. It's just that they disagree on some of God's attributes. Of course this would be meaningless if you don't think they've demonstrated God exists. I'm not as confident as you that no theists present good arguments.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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24-08-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-08-2017 01:00 PM)mordant Wrote:  I would say the more literalist / inerrantist / fundamentalist the sect, the more it leans toward primacy of consciousness. Not as an explicit philosophical teaching, but it's certainly implicit and inherent so long as you imagine that the universe is created and sustained by the power of even one supreme Mind.

I think the primacy of consciousness is only problematic if one believes they can will things into existence. I don't see anything fallacious about believing an infinite mind can will things into existence.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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24-08-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(11-08-2017 10:09 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I don't see any metaphysical reason why you can't posit an immaterial consciousness. Good luck demonstrating its existence, though (or any mechanism by which it can "cause" any material objects or effects)!

While it may be difficult to demonstrate the existence of an immaterial consciousness, I think it's near impossible to do so with a material consciousness. The list of predicates we use to describe conscious experience are irreducible to material predicates.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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24-08-2017, 12:49 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(24-08-2017 12:32 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Well firstly, God doesn't always agree with each theist.
Other than simply asserting god disagrees with a given theist, how would you know that is the case?

And lo and behold, if he disagrees with that other theist, my guess is that on that point, he agrees with YOU. This is the point being made here -- not a doctrinal point of some kind, just that whatever person X thinks god says, that's as far as that person is concerned what he says, because there is no objective way to determine otherwise.
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