Atheism is the only rational position to take
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-09-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-09-2017 07:43 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 11:45 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Atheism is nothing more than the absence of belief in God(s). It isn't supposed to provide grounds for knowledge and intelligibility. For that, you must turn to logic and science.

But the issue is that the atheist worldview lacks sufficient grounds to warrant belief in logical laws or induction. I'm not claiming the lack of belief in a god itself must be able to ground anything; rather, I'm saying a worldview that lacks the Christian God is incapable of providing grounds for intelligibility. That is to say that the atheist worldview cannot provide a foundation for any claims the atheist makes. For example, on what basis do you claim logic holds any weight? On what basis are you able to use inductive reasoning?

There is no "atheist worldview". And the christian god provides grounds for intelligibility? Please. Nothing about christianity enables you to understand anything, except maybe the minds of its followers. It has no foundation in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like kemo boy's post
07-09-2017, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 08:40 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-09-2017 08:33 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 07:52 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Anyone who values honesty and consistency can support the use of logic and induction to achieve accuracy. Are you claiming that atheists can't be honest and consistent?

I am indeed claiming atheists can't ultimately be consistent, however, they can be honest. But my question is getting at what grounds logic and induction in the first place.

I should add that atheists have no need to answer the question "Why do logic and induction exist?" because it assumes there is a why. At best, Christians can only answer the question with mythology: "God created logic and induction." Atheists just say that logic and induction work because the world is consistent. That's an observable fact, and science explains how it got that way, not mythology.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thoreauvian's post
07-09-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-09-2017 07:43 PM)Naielis Wrote:  But the issue is that the atheist worldview lacks sufficient grounds to warrant belief in logical laws or induction.

Concepts like logic or math work by definition. All they are is shorthand ways for us to communicate and understand basic phenomenon which can be repeatably observed. Pretending like logic is some type of magical force which points to the existence of something higher is both missing the point and baseless.


(06-09-2017 07:43 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I'm not claiming the lack of belief in a god itself must be able to ground anything; rather, I'm saying a worldview that lacks the Christian God is incapable of providing grounds for intelligibility. That is to say that the atheist worldview cannot provide a foundation for any claims the atheist makes. For example, on what basis do you claim logic holds any weight? On what basis are you able to use inductive reasoning?

As mentioned above, the "atheist worldview" (if there is such a thing) doesn't need to provide this basis; these things are true by definition.

To turn the table: what specifically from the Christian worldview explains and accounts for logic or inductive reasoning? What about this requires the Christian god (or any god)? Do note that
  • if you use logic to make your point, you're using circular reasoning (logic to prove god, god to prove logic).
  • if you just point to scripture, you're making a baseless claim.
I seriously don't see what makes this worldview so special that it isn't either self-defeating or just dismissed on basis of no evidence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like RobbyPants's post
07-09-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-09-2017 08:33 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
Quote:On the other hand, how can Christians claim sufficient grounds for logic and induction when they derive their ethics and worldview from the commands of a God, who is anything but dependable and consistent?

In what way is the Christian god not dependable or consistent?

Sure, dependably and consistently non-existent. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Chas's post
07-09-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
I will just point out that certain ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc.) seemed to do just fine hundreds of years before Christianity. Aristotle even wrote several books on logic, and most of that is still valid today. Furthermore, Christian metaphysics (Aquinas and his followers) is largely based on Aristotle. There is nothing specifically Christian about the foundations of logic.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Grasshopper's post
07-09-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Again, Rene Descartes declared that God created the logic of the Universe and that God could have created that in any way he chose, the laws of nature and metaphysics are contingent, not necessary. But the Descartes, who was as orthodox a Catholic as they come also accepts the claim God is supremely good. But if so, God could have used his great power to eliminate moral evil. Giving us a God-like good nature and a God-like free will so we always, like God, freely choose to do nothing morally evil.

This idea God creates the very logic and metaphysics of the world turns out to be, when taken to its logical conclusion, incoherent and contradictory when taking God's other supposed attributes into account.

So the very idea God creates the logic and metaphysics of the world means logic and metaphysics and God are not a good fit with each other. Logic and metaphysics are a big problem for God.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cheerful Charlie's post
07-09-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 12:15 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I will just point out that certain ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc.) seemed to do just fine hundreds of years before Christianity. Aristotle even wrote several books on logic, and most of that is still valid today. Furthermore, Christian metaphysics (Aquinas and his followers) is largely based on Aristotle. There is nothing specifically Christian about the foundations of logic.

I guess Naielis's point was presuppositionalist, in which case there won't be much more to discuss.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thoreauvian's post
07-09-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 02:04 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 12:15 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I will just point out that certain ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc.) seemed to do just fine hundreds of years before Christianity. Aristotle even wrote several books on logic, and most of that is still valid today. Furthermore, Christian metaphysics (Aquinas and his followers) is largely based on Aristotle. There is nothing specifically Christian about the foundations of logic.

I guess Naielis's point was presuppositionalist, in which case there won't be much more to discuss.

Maybe, but other people I've encountered who make those sorts of arguments have been Thomists (followers of Aquinas), whose philosophy is based on Aristotle, who was non-Christian. So it's a bit strange for them to claim that Christianity is a requirement for logic. It's possible he's coming from somewhere else. Maybe he'll tell us.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
07-09-2017, 02:26 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 02:23 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 02:04 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I guess Naielis's point was presuppositionalist, in which case there won't be much more to discuss.

Maybe, but other people I've encountered who make those sorts of arguments have been Thomists (followers of Aquinas), whose philosophy is based on Aristotle, who was non-Christian. So it's a bit strange for them to claim that Christianity is a requirement for logic. It's possible he's coming from somewhere else. Maybe he'll tell us.

Pretty sure that was the Whovian from Walden making a joke. Big Grin

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2017, 02:49 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 02:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 02:23 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Maybe, but other people I've encountered who make those sorts of arguments have been Thomists (followers of Aquinas), whose philosophy is based on Aristotle, who was non-Christian. So it's a bit strange for them to claim that Christianity is a requirement for logic. It's possible he's coming from somewhere else. Maybe he'll tell us.

Pretty sure that was the Whovian from Walden making a joke. Big Grin

You're probably right. I have the social deficiency of frequently failing to recognize jokes. And that's no joke.

Laugh out load
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: