Atheism is the only rational position to take
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07-09-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 02:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 02:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Pretty sure that was the Whovian from Walden making a joke. Big Grin

You're probably right. I have the social deficiency of frequently failing to recognize jokes. And that's no joke.

Still funny though. Big Grin

#sigh
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07-09-2017, 04:16 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 02:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Pretty sure that was the Whovian from Walden making a joke. Big Grin

I wasn't making a joke in this case.

Hobo

"Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. ... An ultimate presupposition is a belief over which no other takes precedence." (Google)

If Naielis really is a Presuppositionalist, then no discussion will be possible beyond a point. I take Presuppositionalism as an attempt to dehumanize any opposition to Christian doctrine.
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07-09-2017, 05:38 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(07-09-2017 04:16 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 02:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Pretty sure that was the Whovian from Walden making a joke. Big Grin

I wasn't making a joke in this case.

Hobo

"Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. ... An ultimate presupposition is a belief over which no other takes precedence." (Google)

If Naielis really is a Presuppositionalist, then no discussion will be possible beyond a point. I take Presuppositionalism as an attempt to dehumanize any opposition to Christian doctrine.

The joke was funnier.

#sigh
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08-09-2017, 12:53 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
His argument(s) was clearly presuppositionalist, but is he going to own up to this or weasel his way out in order to keep a "discussion" going?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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08-09-2017, 02:30 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
At work.

From past, limited experiance Naielis seems like an okay bloke.

Here's to hoping they haven't been hanging around and catching bad influences from such as Matt Slick or an Internet personally by way of handle "Darwin's Deity"
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08-09-2017, 05:16 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Yeah, he seems like a decent chap.

I don't know how you can get from "something poofed all this into existence by magic" to "specifically the Christian God did it, as chronicled in a book of Jewish fairy tales and a fictional man/God".

How the first part is meant to explain anything at all is beyond me. I think Nails has a fundamental discomfort saying, "I don't know". It seems quite common among the religious.

Even if Christianity were "true" (it's hard to parse what that would even mean since the book is filled with demonstrably wrong information), why kiss the arse of the leader?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-09-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(08-09-2017 02:30 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

From past, limited experiance Naielis seems like an okay bloke.

Here's to hoping they haven't been hanging around and catching bad influences from such as Matt Slick or an Internet personally by way of handle "Darwin's Deity"
Naielis had a rough start here a few months ago, sort of an arrogant scorched-earth policy at first, but he admitted to being 17 years old and after many of us urged him to tone it down and have a bit of humility and do as much listening as talking, he seems to have taken that to heart. He plays consistently nice in the sandbox now, or at least as nice as the rest of us ;-) I rather like him actually. Reminds me a good deal of my stepson who is finishing up his philosophy degree right now.
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10-09-2017, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 01:04 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Some thoughts about logic, and this idea Nails has that it's somehow part of reality itself:

We can only ever determine that our observations of reality, as classified by us, appear to follow a particular type of logic. We can never say anything at all about reality itself. No one can ever get any direct data about it. We are forever looking at a shadow, and can only try and infer what might be making it.

Statements such as "It's impossible to have a married bachelor", again tell us nothing about reality. They don't even tell us anything about our observations about reality. All they tell us is that if we call something "a bachelor", then we have defined it in such a way that it can't also be something that we call "married". This is entirely artificial, and works only within our abstract system.

I've tried to make this point many times before in other topics. But even if we really could know that reality conforms to some particular kind of logic, it is an argument from incredulity to announce that this must imply a designer.

And this idea that, "Atheism doesn't explain X..." is irrelevant, because it's not supposed to explain X. It doesn't even attempt to explain anything. Nails is confusing atheism with his ideas of what logically follows from atheism. But he doesn't get to tell any particular atheist what they believe, or how they try to explain things.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-09-2017, 03:55 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-09-2017 12:56 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Nails is confusing atheism with his ideas of what logically follows from atheism. But he doesn't get to tell any particular atheist what they believe, or how they try to explain things.

Just like we don't get to say that all theists are unreasonable all the time, only that some theistic ideas are unreasonable, or that theists are being unreasonable at certain times.

Logic and induction are skills anyone can use, not just theists or atheists.
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10-09-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
To continue an earlier thought:

I used the analogy that we're only ever looking at a shadow of reality, and can never look directly at it. A big part of science is about predicting how that shadow will behave in the future. We can do this very successfully, without having to know anything about the thing that is making the shadow.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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