Atheism is the only rational position to take
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03-08-2017, 08:09 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Atheism is an individuals lack of belief in or rejection of the notion of a god or gods. That's all it is. It is not a worldview. It's a position on a single issue.

How about those who believe or know that God/s do not exist, are they atheists too?

For such individuals, sure atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is. They’re just positions on a single issue. Except of course this single positions tends to house a variety of positions, like a particular religion, and views of the nature of reality itself, like physicialism.

Yes they are atheists. Whether one is a strong atheist or a weak atheist is irrelevant to the issue I raised above. And yes Atheists are all over the map on other issues. The only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in gods.
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism holds the opposite principle: the primacy of consciousness. This is the principle that the things that exist are dependent upon and can be altered by conscious activity such as willing. It holds that "wishing does make it so".



Yea, that doesn’t follow.

It doesn’t seem that you’re speaking exclusively of solipsism.

And yes things that exist can be altered by conscious activity. Since it’s all reducible to molecules in motion, any particular conscious activity will cause a shift in the corresponding molecules. Conscious activity is still a physical activity.

So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

Okay, I want you to demonstrate that conscious activity can alter the things that exist. I want you to alter the sun by conscious activity. It is definitely made of molecules and they are definitely in motion. I want you to make the sun turn green tomorrow morning between 8:00 Am and 9:00 Am, simply by applying your will to it. We'll all know if it happens. I'll be sure to look.








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03-08-2017, 08:11 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Atheism is an individuals lack of belief in or rejection of the notion of a god or gods. That's all it is. It is not a worldview. It's a position on a single issue.

How about those who believe or know that God/s do not exist, are they atheists too?

For such individuals, sure atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is. They’re just positions on a single issue. Except of course this single positions tends to house a variety of positions, like a particular religion, and views of the nature of reality itself, like physicialism.

One atheist friend of mine is a spiritualist, which is to say he does not believe in any god but he does believe in reincarnation and psychic abilities and so on. Of course atheists also disagree on politics, determinism versus free will, ethics, and any number of other philosophical positions. So in the end, we still have to say that the only thing all atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in any god. (Of course, most atheists agree with some form of materialism, but their worldview is naturalism, not atheism.)
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03-08-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:11 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about those who believe or know that God/s do not exist, are they atheists too?

For such individuals, sure atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is. They’re just positions on a single issue. Except of course this single positions tends to house a variety of positions, like a particular religion, and views of the nature of reality itself, like physicialism.

One atheist friend of mine is a spiritualist, which is to say he does not believe in any god but he does believe in reincarnation and psychic abilities and so on. Of course atheists also disagree on politics, determinism versus free will, ethics, and any number of other philosophical positions. So in the end, we still have to say that the only thing all atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in any god. (Of course, most atheists agree with some form of materialism, but their worldview is naturalism, not atheism.)

Yes. Being atheist tells you what someone doesn't believe, not what they do. Tomasia wants to redirect away from the issue of metaphysical primacy and theism's affirmation of the primacy of consciousness. So he wants to move the discussion to what anything other than primacy because he knows he's dead in the water on that issue. I don't know where he saw anything about solipsism in my OP and I don't see how it is at all relevant. Whether someone believes that there are no gods or lacks a belief in god's, theism is still irrational and therefore atheism is the only rational position to take.

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03-08-2017, 08:47 AM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:11 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  One atheist friend of mine is a spiritualist, which is to say he does not believe in any god but he does believe in reincarnation and psychic abilities and so on. Of course atheists also disagree on politics, determinism versus free will, ethics, and any number of other philosophical positions. So in the end, we still have to say that the only thing all atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in any god. (Of course, most atheists agree with some form of materialism, but their worldview is naturalism, not atheism.)

Which is as superficially true, as stating that all theists have in common is a belief in god/s. Some theists subscribe to deism, pantheism, some believe in ghost, some have an entirely naturalistic view of reality, etc.... In fact I’d say there’s far more diversify among theists and their particular beliefs, than there is among atheists.






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03-08-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Quote:Rationality
raʃ(ə)ˈnalɪti/
noun
1.The quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic
2.The quality of being able to think sensibly or logically.
3.The quality of being endowed with the capacity to reason.

To be rational at all, to me at least, suggests that religion and the belief there-in, does not play any part at all. To believe in any religion/god(s) is basically the complete opposite.

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03-08-2017, 08:53 AM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:36 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:11 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  One atheist friend of mine is a spiritualist, which is to say he does not believe in any god but he does believe in reincarnation and psychic abilities and so on. Of course atheists also disagree on politics, determinism versus free will, ethics, and any number of other philosophical positions. So in the end, we still have to say that the only thing all atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in any god. (Of course, most atheists agree with some form of materialism, but their worldview is naturalism, not atheism.)

Yes. Being atheist tells you what someone doesn't believe, not what they do.

It depends some atheists, are telling me by that label, that they believe God does not exist, like Alex Rosenberg, some are telling me that they merely lack a belief.

Some atheists draw a distinction between what it means to be agnostic and what it means to be atheists, some don’t.

Atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is a worldview. It just tends to be an integral part, or an aspect often derived by ones worldview.


Quote:Tomasia wants to redirect away from the issue of metaphysical primacy and theism's affirmation of the primacy of consciousness.

I’m not redirecting, I’m still trying to understand the parameters of your claim here.





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"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-08-2017, 08:58 AM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:09 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about those who believe or know that God/s do not exist, are they atheists too?

For such individuals, sure atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is. They’re just positions on a single issue. Except of course this single positions tends to house a variety of positions, like a particular religion, and views of the nature of reality itself, like physicialism.

Yes they are atheists. Whether one is a strong atheist or a weak atheist is irrelevant to the issue I raised above. And yes Atheists are all over the map on other issues. The only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in gods.
(03-08-2017 07:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yea, that doesn’t follow.

It doesn’t seem that you’re speaking exclusively of solipsism.

And yes things that exist can be altered by conscious activity. Since it’s all reducible to molecules in motion, any particular conscious activity will cause a shift in the corresponding molecules. Conscious activity is still a physical activity.

So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

Okay, I want you to demonstrate that conscious activity can alter the things that exist. I want you to alter the sun by conscious activity. It is definitely made of molecules and they are definitely in motion. I want you to make the sun turn green tomorrow morning between 8:00 Am and 9:00 Am, simply by applying your will to it. We'll all know if it happens.


I never said that our conscious activity is able to alter everything that exist, or all the molecules that compose reality. In fact my example involved conscious activity altering a particular set of molecules, particularly those involving the conscious activity in question.

So do you acknowledge that conscious activity does alter some things that exists?

Let’s use another example, conscious activity leads me to move my hand, and move the plant sitting at my desk. Is this an example of conscious activity altering something that exists?






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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-08-2017, 09:02 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It depends some atheists, are telling me by that label, that they believe God does not exist, like Alex Rosenberg, some are telling me that they merely lack a belief.

Some atheists draw a distinction between what it means to be agnostic and what it means to be atheists, some don’t.

Atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is a worldview. It just tends to be an integral part, or an aspect often derived by ones worldview.
It's not that we "believe" anything does or does not exist, its that we see there is no supporting evidence for god or any other gods for that matter, to exist at all.

Most draw the distinction between Atheism and Agnosticism, because an Atheist will say "judging from the facts we have, god(s) does NOT exist", note the its not I believe god(s) exist, more that a god or gods just flat out do not exist. Atheists are open to the idea, providing you prove it to be true, with actual hard evidence, because that's how we know anything is real/exist's in the first place.#

Agnostics are more open to the idea, with or without the evidence, but generally rest on the fence in a "i don't know, man, we'll never know" sort of way.

Us Atheists like to point out the difference, because there is a difference when talking about what people believe and don't believe.

Overall, Atheism is just a label to say "this person, doesn't think there is a god or gods, due to lack of evidence", other than that we are all different people, with different ideas/world views etc.

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03-08-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is a worldview. It just tends to be an integral part, or an aspect often derived by ones worldview.

Theism on it's own is no more a worldview than atheism, at least by one definition of the word. By another definition, theism implies a God who is singular, created the universe, and intervenes in the world, as contrasted with deism and pantheism for instance. That does have a few other implications.

According to Google, "theism" is "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."

Definitions can be quite confusing.
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03-08-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 09:04 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  According to Google, "theism" is "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."

Note the word "Belief"

Quote:Belief
bɪˈliːf/Submit
noun
1. An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
Rolleyes

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