Atheism is the only rational position to take
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16-09-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:08 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-09-2017 06:05 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Well I'm sorry you've decided to judge me so hastily.

I'm not.

"I haven't read your posts all the way through"

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:00 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(16-09-2017 05:26 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Okay, I'll ask. What are an "unbeliever's core beliefs" and how are they "inconsistent with their worldview"? What worldview is that? The lack of belief in any god is not a worldview. If you want to criticize naturalistic materialism, you are up against scientists and philosophers, not just atheists.

The unbeliever's core beliefs tend to be what many atheists posit as axioms: laws of logic, uniformity of nature, reliability of sense perception, reliability of their own faculties, etc. A belief in these is inconsistent with atheism because the atheist worldview lacks the means to account for these beliefs. As far as materialism goes, it seems at this point to be dead in the water.

What? I'm not following, atheism isn't viable because rules exist? Or because we are forced to accept our faculties? How do either of these things relate to atheism? Atheism is simply a position on the existence of god, and nothing else. There are theists whose positions are identical to those of atheists excepting the proposition that there is a god.

Quote:
Quote:You think your god is necessary. We do not. Unless you can prove your assertion that your god is necessary, why should we consider atheism inconsistent with anything except the belief in a god? You have the burden of proof, so give it a shot.

I personally think such assertions as the one quoted above show you don't understand much about atheism. Being an atheist means we don't need to accept the burden of proof for theistic assertions.

So I agree that the burden of proof is on me to demonstrate God is necessary. But I also believe the burden of proof lies on the unbeliever to demonstrate they can reason or predicate intelligibly while being autonomous from the Christian God.

Why would reason be dependant on god? And why on the christian god? Why not Athena, goddess of wisdom? Or Brahma?
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16-09-2017, 06:12 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 06:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 04:23 PM)Naielis Wrote:  On the Christian perspective, induction is possible because God has made nature uniform such that we can reason from particulars to general laws.

Induction is possible because humans have worked out some guidlines for what works and what doesn't work, and it only works to some degree.
Induction said nothing about Uncertainty or Relativity until they were proven by the scientific method ... and the Christian gods had absolutely nothing to do with any of it.
Nature is hardly uniform ... and in some degree it's absolutely the opposite ... or some babies exposed to the same carcinogens would not get the same cancers that other babies don't get.
Don't tell me your "epistemic certainty" has changed you into a Christian ? Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-09-2017, 06:16 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:00 PM)Naielis Wrote:  The unbeliever's core beliefs tend to be what many atheists posit as axioms: laws of logic, uniformity of nature, reliability of sense perception, reliability of their own faculties, etc. A belief in these is inconsistent with atheism because the atheist worldview lacks the means to account for these beliefs. As far as materialism goes, it seems at this point to be dead in the water.

So I agree that the burden of proof is on me to demonstrate God is necessary. But I also believe the burden of proof lies on the unbeliever to demonstrate they can reason or predicate intelligibly while being autonomous from the Christian God.

What "laws" of logic are you referring to?

Nature isn't uniform, but changes over time. Even the "laws of nature" seem to emerge with the phenomena.

Sense perceptions are not reliable, as has been shown by science.

Similarly, human faculties have also been shown to be unreliable by science and logic. This is a big reason we don't trust theistic assertions.

Why in the world would you believe materialism is "dead in the water"?

Why should an unbeliever have to prove anything to a believer? It's your assertion that we can't "reason or predicate intelligibly while being autonomous from the Christian God."

You seem to be trying to put us on the defensive. Some people have ignored or insulted you for that tactic. Why should we be on the defensive about anything since we don't share your assumptions about atheism?
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16-09-2017, 06:22 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:11 PM)natachan Wrote:  What? I'm not following, atheism isn't viable because rules exist?

No not because rules exist. Because the atheist worldview can't account for the core beliefs of it's adherents.

Quote:Or because we are forced to accept our faculties? How do either of these things relate to atheism? Atheism is simply a position on the existence of god, and nothing else. There are theists whose positions are identical to those of atheists excepting the proposition that there is a god.

Right and atheism requires that it's adherents believe they can operate separate from the Christian worldview. Theists that address unbelievers on their own terms fail to see that the unbeliever's terms are incoherent.

Quote:Why would reason be dependant on god? And why on the christian god? Why not Athena, goddess of wisdom? Or Brahma?

Because only the Christian God has the necessary attributes to account for intelligibility.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 06:22 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Calling drivel drivel is not an insult. It's stating a fact.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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16-09-2017, 06:30 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 06:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Because only the Christian God has the necessary attributes to account for intelligibility.

LOL

Having "attributes" means it doesn't have other attributes, and ALL the attributes had to exist together, as long as your god existed, if your god can be defined as "having attributes" (and your god does not possess the infinity that is claimed for it). Reality remains unaccounted for. If your god exists, then as long as that was/is true, non-existence ALSO had to simultaneously be a part of Reality. A deity that is required to participate
in only part of Reality, is no god, and certainly is not the maker of that Reality it exists in. Do try and *think* about the drivel Christian apologists spoon feed the world.

The Christian god is Yahweh Sabaoth, (The "Lord of Hosts") ... ie the Babylonian god of the armies (Jesus called him the Father), and that god is one of the sons of the chief Babylonian god, El Elyon.

You really don't know any history, do you ? OMG.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-09-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Because only the Christian God has the necessary attributes to account for intelligibility.

Just a little friendly heads up: most of the people here aren't big fans of the "Christian god." They think he's a douche nozzle.
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16-09-2017, 06:31 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:16 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  What "laws" of logic are you referring to?

1. Law of Identity
2. Law of Non-Contradiction
3. Law of Excluded Middle

Quote:Nature isn't uniform, but changes over time. Even the "laws of nature" seem to emerge with the phenomena.

I don't think the term is being understood. The uniformity of nature refers to concrete laws of nature and inference.

Quote:Sense perceptions are not reliable, as has been shown by science.

That position would be self-contradictory. If sense perceptions aren't reliable, science cannot continue. How else might we go about observing anything?

Quote:Similarly, human faculties have also been shown to be unreliable by science and logic. This is a big reason we don't trust theistic assertions.

So how do you know anything if you can't even rely on your own reasoning?

Quote:Why in the world would you believe materialism is "dead in the water"?

Because materialists have consistently failed to reduce immaterial predicates to material predicates via bridge laws.

Quote:Why should an unbeliever have to prove anything to a believer? It's your assertion that we can't "reason or predicate intelligibly while being autonomous from the Christian God."

Well, if the unbeliever asserts they can reason apart from the Christian position, they must justify that claim.

Quote:You seem to be trying to put us on the defensive. Some people have ignored or insulted you for that tactic. Why should we be on the defensive about anything since we don't share your assumptions about atheism?

Because you need to justify your claim to autonomy.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 06:35 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Induction is possible because humans have worked out some guidlines for what works and what doesn't work, and it only works to some degree.

If you're positing pragmatism, then I have to ask what truth even means on a pragmatist view. But how does "what works" solve the problem of induction?

Quote:Induction said nothing about Uncertainty or Relativity until they were proven by the scientific method ... and the Christian gods had absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

Okay... I don't quite get your point.

Quote:Nature is hardly uniform ... and in some degree it's absolutely the opposite ... or some babies exposed to the same carcinogens would not get the same cancers that other babies don't get.

Uniformity refers to set laws of nature.

Quote:Don't tell me your "epistemic certainty" has changed you into a Christian ? Facepalm

Well I found TAG to be devastating to my agnosticism. I had no ability to ground my autonomy.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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