Atheism is the only rational position to take
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16-09-2017, 06:52 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:49 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Please explain the mechanism by which God created anything.

I don't know the mechanism.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 06:53 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. Thumbsup
Thanks for debunking your own god.
Your god "found itself" as a PART of Reality ... a reality which was ALWAYS there, as long as it was.
Your deity explains nothing.
That took about, ... what ... 10 minutes ?

I'm extremely confused by your objection. What is problematic about God being apart of reality?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:52 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(16-09-2017 06:49 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Please explain the mechanism by which God created anything.

I don't know the mechanism.

> Then your claim is bogus. That which may be asserted without evidence may also be dismissed without evidence. Consider
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16-09-2017, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 07:11 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:53 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(16-09-2017 06:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. Thumbsup
Thanks for debunking your own god.
Your god "found itself" as a PART of Reality ... a reality which was ALWAYS there, as long as it was.
Your deity explains nothing.
That took about, ... what ... 10 minutes ?

I'm extremely confused by your objection. What is problematic about God being apart of reality?

Think about it. It means your god is not the creator of all things. Reality is a thing, and your deity MUST participate in only a part of it. The qualities and attributes that define your god had to come and be defined by SOMETHING EXTERNAL to your god. You never read Euthyphro's Dilemma ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
The "act of creation" is meaningless drivel.
Acts REQUIRE time. The initiator has to INTEND the act, then start the act, then complete the act. Your deity exists in a timeless dimension, (so they say). The words "act of creation" are meaningless in that context, (as is EVERYTHING else that's claimed about it ... "sent his son" ... bla bla bla. etc etc etc

The entire business of Salvation, (which is what Christianity came to be about) is antithetical to the origins it claims.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid159006
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...=salvation
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...+Testament
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-09-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 07:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Think about it. It means your god is not the creator of all things. Reality is a thing, and your deity MUST participate in only a part of it.

Why only part of it?

Quote:The qualities and attributes that define your god had to come and be defined by SOMETHING EXTERNAL to your god.

Again... why?

Quote:You never read Euthyphro's Dilemma ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

I have indeed.

Quote:The "act of creation" is meaningless drivel.

Why...

Quote:Acts REQUIRE time. The initiator has to INTEND the act, then start the act, then complete the act.

To talk about God is to speak in analogy. We use the word act to describe it, but ultimately we don't know the mechanics of the creation. Why do acts have to occur in time though? What logically necessitates that conclusion?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-09-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm tired of hearing it. I hear it on the radio, on the tv, see it plastered all over the internet: atheism is irrational.

No it is not. atheism is the only rational position to take.

Atheism is an individuals lack of belief in or rejection of the notion of a god or gods. That's all it is. It is not a worldview. It's a position on a single issue.

Reason is compatible only with the primacy of existence principle. This is the principle that the things that exist, that facts, are what they are independent of conscious activity, including the activity of reason, which is the identification of the facts that our senses perceive. It does not create facts or alter them but identifies and categorizes them in the form of concepts. If I perceive an object, say an orange, and I identify it as an elephant, it will remain an orange. It won't transform into an elephant in order to conform to my conscious activity. In short, wishing doesn't make it so. This fact is self evident and axiomatic. It does not need to be proved. In fact, if the primacy of existence were not true, there'd be no such thing as proof and no need for it.

Theism holds the opposite principle: the primacy of consciousness. This is the principle that the things that exist are dependent upon and can be altered by conscious activity such as willing. It holds that "wishing does make it so".

For this reason theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

Not really.

Atheism is not the only rational position. It is just rational.

Agnosticism is also rational since I do not proclaim to have studied from every corner of the universe to decide whether God can exist or not.

I am officially a Hindu but personally, I'm agnostic - I will have to see for myself by virtue of proofs that God exists.
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16-09-2017, 08:47 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 06:05 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(16-09-2017 06:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The unbeliever doesn't have beliefs. Let's start by describing people accurately.

Atheists don't have beliefs??? I think you are confused.
...

[Image: tumblr_ldow012jAt1qbwmdbo1_r1_500.jpg]

The question is... did you?

[Image: fallcy1.jpg]

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16-09-2017, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 10:04 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 07:09 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Why only part of it?

I know you're smarter than this.
Because YOU claimed it has "attributes". Not ALL attributes. Is your god evil ?
Some attributes, and existing but not "not existing" are not the totality of Reality. It (your god )was ALWAYS a subset of Reality, of necessity, from WHAT YOU CLAIMED.

Quote:The qualities and attributes that define your god had to come and be defined by SOMETHING EXTERNAL to your god.

Quote:Again... why?

If they are not, then the "attribute" is a nothing, and a meaningless tripe statement. If it just is what it is already, then your attribute claim is false. If the claim is meaningful, then the standard EXISTS, and always did, apart from the god.

Quote:I have indeed.

Obviously you didn't understand the implications.

Quote:Acts REQUIRE time. The initiator has to INTEND the act, then start the act, then complete the act.

Quote:To talk about God is to speak in analogy. We use the word act to describe it, but ultimately we don't know the mechanics of the creation. Why do acts have to occur in time though? What logically necessitates that conclusion?

False. Using specific language means specific things. You never said you were talking in analogy. Stating "god created the universe" means something, very specific. It means it did not exist and THEN it BEGAN to exist. That sentence is incoherent. Words that invoke spacetime ("then, "began") cannot be used in the environment YOU (if your really are a Christian), claimed it happened in. Analogy to or of what ? When religionists say "god created the universe", they indeed mean something very specific. They mean there was a point when the universe did NOT exist, and then it BEGAN to exist, (which science does not know, nor claim). THAT alone is meaningless, because as far as we know, spacetime exists INSIDE and is a property of this universe until proven otherwise. You're making the common street level mistake made by all religionists, and not examining your assumptions and language. Acts require time BY DEFINITION. Nice try at special pleading your god out of the problem. (Dr. Sean Carroll schooled WLC about this very problem in their debate, and Craig had no response). If your god exists in a timeless environment, then you cannot use any term that invokes time. It's meaningless, and it self-refutes the descriptor used, ("timeless"). Christians mean something VERY specific when they claim "God sent his Son". That is no "analogy". It's the very heart of Christianity, and it means nothing. You can say nothing coherently logical about your deity. (And here you are, complaining about coherence .... LOL.)

BTW, saying "but why" is the response of a two year old.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-09-2017, 09:38 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2017 10:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(16-09-2017 08:18 PM)Thinker Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm tired of hearing it. I hear it on the radio, on the tv, see it plastered all over the internet: atheism is irrational.

No it is not. atheism is the only rational position to take.

Atheism is an individuals lack of belief in or rejection of the notion of a god or gods. That's all it is. It is not a worldview. It's a position on a single issue.

Reason is compatible only with the primacy of existence principle. This is the principle that the things that exist, that facts, are what they are independent of conscious activity, including the activity of reason, which is the identification of the facts that our senses perceive. It does not create facts or alter them but identifies and categorizes them in the form of concepts. If I perceive an object, say an orange, and I identify it as an elephant, it will remain an orange. It won't transform into an elephant in order to conform to my conscious activity. In short, wishing doesn't make it so. This fact is self evident and axiomatic. It does not need to be proved. In fact, if the primacy of existence were not true, there'd be no such thing as proof and no need for it.

Theism holds the opposite principle: the primacy of consciousness. This is the principle that the things that exist are dependent upon and can be altered by conscious activity such as willing. It holds that "wishing does make it so".

For this reason theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

Not really.

Atheism is not the only rational position. It is just rational.

Agnosticism is also rational since I do not proclaim to have studied from every corner of the universe to decide whether God can exist or not.

I am officially a Hindu but personally, I'm agnostic - I will have to see for myself by virtue of proofs that God exists.

Naielis says he's a Christian. Proofs are not going to help, (even though he said he had epistemic certainty a few months ago, and was no Christian, in that little phase).
So much for epistemic certainty. Laugh out load
Christians say that faith is (one of the) gifts of their Holy Spirit. (Paul)
"No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him" John 6:44
The founders of Christianity said it was not a step one takes by using mental faculties or logical deduction, or reason.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-09-2017, 11:10 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Naielis, when you've discovered that you can't reach this audience with your current skills set, reach out to either me or Shai Hulud for a breakdown of what you did wrong here.
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