Atheism is the only rational position to take
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04-08-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:36 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes. Being atheist tells you what someone doesn't believe, not what they do.

It depends some atheists, are telling me by that label, that they believe God does not exist, like Alex Rosenberg, some are telling me that they merely lack a belief.

Some atheists draw a distinction between what it means to be agnostic and what it means to be atheists, some don’t.

Atheism is no more of a worldview than theism is a worldview. It just tends to be an integral part, or an aspect often derived by ones worldview.


Quote:Tomasia wants to redirect away from the issue of metaphysical primacy and theism's affirmation of the primacy of consciousness.

I’m not redirecting, I’m still trying to understand the parameters of your claim here.





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My argument is pretty clear. Theism violates the primacy of existence, reason rests exclusively on the primacy of existence, therefor theism is incompatible with reason and the only rational position to take is to reject it.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-08-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(03-08-2017 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 08:09 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes they are atheists. Whether one is a strong atheist or a weak atheist is irrelevant to the issue I raised above. And yes Atheists are all over the map on other issues. The only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in gods.

So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

Okay, I want you to demonstrate that conscious activity can alter the things that exist. I want you to alter the sun by conscious activity. It is definitely made of molecules and they are definitely in motion. I want you to make the sun turn green tomorrow morning between 8:00 Am and 9:00 Am, simply by applying your will to it. We'll all know if it happens.


I never said that our conscious activity is able to alter everything that exist, or all the molecules that compose reality. In fact my example involved conscious activity altering a particular set of molecules, particularly those involving the conscious activity in question.

So do you acknowledge that conscious activity does alter some things that exists?

Let’s use another example, conscious activity leads me to move my hand, and move the plant sitting at my desk. Is this an example of conscious activity altering something that exists?






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Without a brain and nervous system and muscles you ain't moving anything and without a brain and sense organs you ain't conscious. These facts are true even if one does not like it which only confirms that consciousness too conforms to the primacy of existence.

Just now I thought of my hand moving, I willed it to move, but it didn't move. I imagined it moving and it remained still. I pleaded with it to move but it stayed still. conscious activity alone does nothing. It requires physical action such as chemical reactions, nerve impulses and muscular contractions. Just one of the several ways that consciousness is dependent upon existence and not the other way around.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-08-2017, 01:10 PM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 12:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  My argument is pretty clear. Theism violates the primacy of existence, reason rests exclusively on the primacy of existence, therefor theism is incompatible with reason and the only rational position to take is to reject it.


No it’s not clear hence the reason for my questions. Where they not straight forward enough for you?

You made a variety of claims here, and your inability to answer my questions, doesn’t bode well for the validity of those claims

So please return to my questions. If you can’t respond to them, then I’ll take it that you haven’t thought your argument through.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-08-2017, 01:42 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 12:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  My argument is pretty clear. Theism violates the primacy of existence, reason rests exclusively on the primacy of existence, therefor theism is incompatible with reason and the only rational position to take is to reject it.


No it’s not clear hence the reason for my questions. Where they not straight forward enough for you?

You made a variety of claims here, and your inability to answer my questions, doesn’t bode well for the validity of those claims

So please return to my questions. If you can’t respond to them, then I’ll take it that you haven’t thought your argument through.

I don't see any that I didn't answer. If you could point me to them I'll be glad to. I do see one that you did not answer:

So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-08-2017, 01:46 PM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 01:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Without a brain and nervous system and muscles you ain't moving anything and without a brain and sense organs you ain't conscious. These facts are true even if one does not like it which only confirms that consciousness too conforms to the primacy of existence.

Just now I thought of my hand moving, I willed it to move, but it didn't move. I imagined it moving and it remained still. I pleaded with it to move but it stayed still. conscious activity alone does nothing. It requires physical action such as chemical reactions, nerve impulses and muscular contractions. Just one of the several ways that consciousness is dependent upon existence and not the other way around.

Well i didn’t plead with my hand to move the plant I demanded it. I initially thought of it moving, then I willed it to move it, and it did move. I’d say for you either you didn’t desire to move it, or you’re paralyzed.

It seems to me that if we were to imagine god as a physical being controlling physical forces, perhaps like a computer programmer that created a universe, and alters it at his creative discretion, your argument goes away. Am I correct?

If we can peel your agreements back a little your argument is more about God being immaterial, and having an influence over material things?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-08-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 01:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 01:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Without a brain and nervous system and muscles you ain't moving anything and without a brain and sense organs you ain't conscious. These facts are true even if one does not like it which only confirms that consciousness too conforms to the primacy of existence.

Just now I thought of my hand moving, I willed it to move, but it didn't move. I imagined it moving and it remained still. I pleaded with it to move but it stayed still. conscious activity alone does nothing. It requires physical action such as chemical reactions, nerve impulses and muscular contractions. Just one of the several ways that consciousness is dependent upon existence and not the other way around.

Well i didn’t plead with my hand to move the plant I demanded it. I initially thought of it moving, then I willed it to move it, and it did move. I’d say for you either you didn’t desire to move it, or you’re paralyzed.

It seems to me that if we were to imagine god as a physical being controlling physical forces, perhaps like a computer programmer that created a universe, and alters it at his creative discretion, your argument goes away. Am I correct?

If we can peel your agreements back a little your argument is more about God being immaterial, and having an influence over material things?

You didn't move it by will alone, you had to take physical action just as I have to take physical action to type these words on the computer. I can't simply will them to appear on the screen.

No my argument does not depend on a god being immaterial, whatever that is supposed to mean. And notice what you say here, if we can imagine God being physical. If we're imagining then we have departed from reason. Reason and imagination are two different faculties and the primacy of existence tells us that there is a fundamental distinction between what is real and what is imaginary. I could simply ignore this distinction but that would be irrational. Reason is all about perceiving and identifying facts, not ignoring them.

I'd like you to deal with my argument and not some other argument that I haven't made. Nowhere does my argument require that god be immaterial because I don't suppose there is a god in the first place. But Christianity and other religions say that god is immaterial. None that I'm aware of propose that it is a physical being.

My argument is solely about the fact that theism in it's various forms violates the primacy of existence whether its god is physical or not. If it is conscious and it is said to have created one grain of sand by sheer will then it endorses the metaphysical primacy of consciousness and every version of theism I've ever heard of claims much, much more than that.

You still have not answered my question: So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-08-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Tomasia wrote: Well i didn’t plead with my hand to move the plant I demanded it. I initially thought of it moving, then I willed it to move it, and it did move. I’d say for you either you didn’t desire to move it, or you’re paralyzed.

Not without physical action you didn't. All the willing or wishing in the world will not make your hand move any more than my wishing will change the 5 dollar bill in my wallet into a $100 bill.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-08-2017, 02:17 PM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 01:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't see any that I didn't answer. If you could point me to them I'll be glad to. I do see one that you did not answer:

Sorry, I posted that prior to seeing your second reply

Quote:So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

No, I don’t think it follows. Anymore so than it would follow if we’re speaking of digital universe, produced by the conscious/creative will of its programmer, and sustained by it.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-08-2017, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 02:38 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(04-08-2017 02:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 01:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't see any that I didn't answer. If you could point me to them I'll be glad to. I do see one that you did not answer:

Sorry, I posted that prior to seeing your second reply

Quote:So if Christianity holds that the universe was created by an act of conscious will, is alterable by conscious will and is maintained by conscious will, it does not follow that Christianity affirms the primacy of consciousness?

No, I don’t think it follows. Anymore so than it would follow if we’re speaking of digital universe, produced by the conscious/creative will of its programmer, and sustained by it. And we're not speaking of a digital universe here. I'm speaking of what theism in its different versions claims about its god.





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But programming is a physical action. You are equivocating here. And, we're not speaking of a digital universe here but about what theism in its various forms claims about its god.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-08-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the premise in this proposition.

Some say "I believe unicorns are white", some say "I don't believe unicorns are white". Both are equally irrational. The ones that remain silent about unicorns' color and do not assert anything about it are the rational ones, I think.

If you claim that "I don't believe in any Gods" is a rational claim, you must take the burden of defining God, otherwise your claim hinges on an undefined and ambiguous term, therefore it is nonsensical, hence irrational.
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