Atheism is the only rational position to take
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06-08-2017, 02:51 PM
Atheism is the only rational position to take
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06-08-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-08-2017 01:32 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the premise in this proposition.

Some say "I believe unicorns are white", some say "I don't believe unicorns are white". Both are equally irrational. The ones that remain silent about unicorns' color and do not assert anything about it are the rational ones, I think.

If you claim that "I don't believe in any Gods" is a rational claim, you must take the burden of defining God, otherwise your claim hinges on an undefined and ambiguous term, therefore it is nonsensical, hence irrational.

You are trying to shift the burden of proof. Nice try, but still, failed attempt:
"I dont believe in xxxx" is not a claim. Its the rejection of the claim that xxx exists.
Noone not believing in something does have to define in what he is not believing in. Facepalm That task is up to the one who claims that this something does exist, because he is the one trying to introduce xxxx into the (mental) model of our cosmos. the first atheist could only say "i dont believe in your god" after and because the first theist introduced his god into the cosmos. Its not the atheists┬┤ fault that theists dont have a proper definition of the gods they are trying to indtroduce.

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06-08-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm tired of hearing it. I hear it on the radio, on the tv, see it plastered all over the internet: atheism is irrational.

I never seem to meet these people who say atheism is irrational. Who exactly is saying this? Where is it said on the internet outside of fundamentalist christian (and maybe Muslim) sources?
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06-08-2017, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 03:32 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm tired of hearing it. I hear it on the radio, on the tv, see it plastered all over the internet: atheism is irrational.

No it is not. atheism is the only rational position to take.

Atheism is an individuals lack of belief in or rejection of the notion of a god or gods. That's all it is. It is not a worldview. It's a position on a single issue.

Reason is compatible only with the primacy of existence principle. This is the principle that the things that exist, that facts, are what they are independent of conscious activity, including the activity of reason, which is the identification of the facts that our senses perceive. It does not create facts or alter them but identifies and categorizes them in the form of concepts. If I perceive an object, say an orange, and I identify it as an elephant, it will remain an orange. It won't transform into an elephant in order to conform to my conscious activity. In short, wishing doesn't make it so. This fact is self evident and axiomatic. It does not need to be proved. In fact, if the primacy of existence were not true, there'd be no such thing as proof and no need for it.

Theism holds the opposite principle: the primacy of consciousness. This is the principle that the things that exist are dependent upon and can be altered by conscious activity such as willing. It holds that "wishing does make it so".

For this reason theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

I agree with this almost 100%. However; I disagree with the idea that reality is independent of the observer. Observation has a very limited impact on reality. Basic quantum weirdness via the double slit experiment confirms this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

The largest physical objects that humans have shot through the double slit that still exhibit wave particle duality are buckyballs, which are spheres of 60 carbon atoms.

*Climbs out of the rabbit hole

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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06-08-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Also while I was on vacation with my family in Florida, my dad would play Christian music loudly while driving around (they're definitely aware of my agnostic-atheism now. Thank the stars I didn't have to actually come out and say it.) For the most part I paid no attention, but I remember hearing only one line in a song, which said something like we sound crazy to Christians. 'To the skeptic, who might sound crazy," or something to that effect.

I shook my head. We sound crazy to you? Really? Listen to yourself when you talk.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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06-08-2017, 04:02 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-08-2017 01:32 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If you claim that "I don't believe in any Gods" is a rational claim, you must take the burden of defining God, otherwise your claim hinges on an undefined and ambiguous term, therefore it is nonsensical, hence irrational.

"I don't believe in any gods" is a description of fact. I am being honest.

Different god concepts have different definitions, so atheists don't have to make up new ones. I can rationally reject them all for a lack of evidence, for contradictions with realities, or for contraditions within their definitions. Different god concepts have different failings, and many atheists are familiar with a range of them.
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06-08-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-08-2017 04:02 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  "I don't believe in any gods" is a description of fact. I am being honest.

Facts are empirically verifiable. How can someone verify that you disbelieve all Gods? One must assume you are being honest. I think this assumption is unverifiable. Furthermore, one must make sure that the thing that you have in your mind when rejecting it, is actually God. Maybe someone has only Greek Gods in his mind when he rejects Gods. I think there is no way to verify this assumption either. Therefore I don't think it's a description of a fact, since the proposition is empirically unverifiable. All propositions about a "belief" or "lack of belief" are subjective, they cannot be a fact, I think.

Quote:Different god concepts have different definitions
You are assuming there are some definitions. There are no definitions. Some Gods like Allah and Brahman are clearly stated to have no descriptions. All alleged definitions hinge on more undefined terms. Vague, allegorical, metaphorical and poetic descriptions are all that we have about Gods. I think non of them can be a ground for someone to rationally claim anything about such entities.

I think the only rational position about something that is not clear what it is, is to remain silent about it. Any attempt to talk about God requires a clear definition of the term, which is non-existent, I think.
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06-08-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
If you can't define a god then why should I give it any consideration? The same principal would apply. If it can't be defined then there is no reason to think it exists because sufficient evidence for its existence cannot be presented. I don't believe in any vague and unsubstantiated claim simply because it "can't be defined."
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06-08-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(06-08-2017 07:42 PM)natachan Wrote:  because sufficient evidence for its existence cannot be presented.
Evidence for existence of what? If you want to see whether there are evidences for X or not, you must first define X. If you do not know what X is, how can you claim that there are or aren't evidences?

If we do not know what unicorns are, how can we claim there are no evidences to suggest unicorns exist? Definitions are clearly necessary, for any kind of claim, I think.
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06-08-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Quote:Evidence for existence of what? If you want to see whether there are evidences for X or not, you must first define X. If you do not know what X is, how can you claim that there are or aren't evidences?

If we do not know what unicorns are, how can we claim there are no evidences to suggest unicorns exist? Definitions are clearly necessary, for any kind of claim, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Until you understand this, there is little point in talking to you.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
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