Atheism is the only rational position to take
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09-08-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(08-08-2017 02:51 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Atheism might be the only rational position, but human nature is inherently irrational, so atheism doesn't even make sense.

Your statement doesn't make sense in light of a worldview that arbitrarily rejects rationality. Ergo your statement is self-contradictory.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-08-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(09-08-2017 07:27 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism holds the opposite principle: the primacy of consciousness. This is the principle that the things that exist are dependent upon and can be altered by conscious activity such as willing. It holds that "wishing does make it so".

For this reason theism is incompatible with reason. Therefor atheism is the only rational position to take.

This is a dishonest representation of theism.
How so?

It is probably a bit of an overreach in that theism isn't an intellectually consistent position and often fraught with special pleading. I would say that the Abrahamic faiths, at least, would say that "wishing makes it so" for god, but not (or at least not necessarily) in everyday, routine life, where, typically, "god helps those who help themselves".

But ... it's hard to argue that these faiths don't teach that the universe was willed into existence and is in fact sustained by that same will, and that people's lives are directed to be in conformity to that same will.

So at the very least, we have the primacy of a particular consciousness.
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10-08-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
I don't even know what theism is, since I don't know what a God is.

All I can suppose is that it means, "our reality had an intelligent creator". This would include a computer programmer, and us being a simulation. But of course, most theists would say this doesn't count.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-08-2017, 01:03 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(09-08-2017 05:58 PM)mordant Wrote:  How so?

It is probably a bit of an overreach in that theism isn't an intellectually consistent position and often fraught with special pleading. I would say that the Abrahamic faiths, at least, would say that "wishing makes it so" for god, but not (or at least not necessarily) in everyday, routine life, where, typically, "god helps those who help themselves".

But ... it's hard to argue that these faiths don't teach that the universe was willed into existence and is in fact sustained by that same will, and that people's lives are directed to be in conformity to that same will.

So at the very least, we have the primacy of a particular consciousness.

It's dishonest in that many theistic doctrines don't come close to advocating for primacy of consciousness. Could anyone here give me a quote from the Bible that justifies or supports primacy of consciousness at all?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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10-08-2017, 03:18 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(08-08-2017 10:58 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Why do you say consciousness is poorly defined?
I can refer to some scientific authorities to support the claim that consciousness is undefined, some even claim that it will always remain undefined. If you claim otherwise, you should be able to provide a definition.

Edward Witten, one the most prominent string physicists is quoted to say:

Quote:"I think consciousness will remain a mystery. Yes, that's what I tend to believe. I tend to think that the workings of the conscious brain will be elucidated to a large extent. Biologists and perhaps physicists will understand much better how the brain works. But why something that we call consciousness goes with those workings, I think that will remain mysterious. I have a much easier time imagining how we understand the Big Bang than I have imagining how we can understand consciousness...

I think your assumption that consciousness is a property of the human brain is also not scientifically established. For example, there are notable scientists who speculate that consciousness is not emerged from the brain and it is a basic property of elementary particles as they seem to consciously behave in setups like the double slit experiment.

Just like God, there are drastically inconsistent notions of consciousness. Non of them are clear definitions. But it would be irrational to say "I don't believe in consciousness", I think.
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10-08-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Quote:For example, there are notable scientists who speculate that consciousness is not emerged from the brain and it is a basic property of elementary particles as they seem to consciously behave in setups like the double slit experiment

Bull Facepalm
shit Facepalm

citation needed Drinking Beverage

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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10-08-2017, 03:27 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-08-2017 03:18 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think your assumption that consciousness is a property of the human brain is also not scientifically established. For example, there are notable scientists who speculate that consciousness is not emerged from the brain and it is a basic property of elementary particles as they seem to consciously behave in setups like the double slit experiment.

The double slit experiment does no service to panpsychism. And panpsychists still have to explain the way in which multiple small minds can combine to create a greater unified mind. They also have to have an ontology that explains why consciousness is a basic property.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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10-08-2017, 03:32 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-08-2017 03:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  citation needed Drinking Beverage

Freeman Dyson is quoted to say:

Quote:"It is remarkable that mind enters into our awareness of nature on two separate levels. At the highest level, the level of human consciousness, our minds are somehow directly aware of the complicated flow of electrical and chemical patterns in our brains. At the lowest level, the level of single atoms and electrons, the mind of an observer is again involved in the description of events. Between lies the level of molecular biology, where mechanical models are adequate and mind appears to be irrelevant. But I, as a physicist, cannot help suspecting that there is a logical connection between the two ways in which mind appears in my universe. I cannot help thinking that our awareness of our own brains has something to do with the process which we call "observation" in atomic physics. That is to say, I think our consciousness is not just a passive epiphenomenon carried along by the chemical events in our brains, but is an active agent forcing the molecular complexes to make choices between one quantum state and another. In other words, mind is already inherent in every electron, and the processes of human consciousness differ only in degree but not in kind from the processes of choice between quantum states which we call "chance" when they are made by electrons."

Specifically this part:
Quote:In other words, mind is already inherent in every electron, and the processes of human consciousness differ only in degree but not in kind from the processes of choice between quantum states which we call "chance" when they are made by electrons

I just brought this up to support that there are very inconsistent notions of consciousness out there. I personally have no position in this regard and I do not defend what Dyson is suggesting here.
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10-08-2017, 03:35 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
(10-08-2017 03:27 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 03:18 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think your assumption that consciousness is a property of the human brain is also not scientifically established. For example, there are notable scientists who speculate that consciousness is not emerged from the brain and it is a basic property of elementary particles as they seem to consciously behave in setups like the double slit experiment.

The double slit experiment does no service to panpsychism. And panpsychists still have to explain the way in which multiple small minds can combine to create a greater unified mind. They also have to have an ontology that explains why consciousness is a basic property.

Indeed, that's why we do not have any definitions yet, just speculations. But the mere fact that such speculations exist within the scientific community can demonstrate the extent of indefiniteness of consciousness. That is the only point I want to make.
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10-08-2017, 03:38 AM
RE: Atheism is the only rational position to take
Why Panpsychism Is Probably Wrong

"How do the micro-experiences of billions of subatomic particles in my brain combine to form the twinge of pain I’m feeling in my knee?"

Blink

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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