Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
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22-06-2013, 01:47 AM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
David, cleanup on thread five. David, thread five.

"Anyone seen David?"
"that lazy cunt"
"seriously, he makes these fucking threads and never comes back to take care of them"
"what a douchehammer"

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22-06-2013, 02:33 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2013 10:57 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(21-06-2013 11:26 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(21-06-2013 12:30 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I think it's good to have theist on here for the purpose of conversation, but this guy is ridiculous. There is no purpose to his being here. He seems to only want to yell at atheist and act smug. There are enough of those people out there in the world. I'd rather communicate with a theist who can communicate and has interesting things to say.

Don't some atheists visit theist forums with direct challenges? I'm pretty sure I've done it in the past, and I doubt you'd be offended by that if you saw it. The reasons for doing this could include a desire to become better at argument, or perhaps wanting to change minds, or even to simply learn what the arguments against his religion are. Whatever the reason, there's no benefit to simply writing him off -- it's simply going to reinforce his view on atheists and give him rationalizations for dismissing what we have to offer.

I think I already addressed this in the quote you are replying to. I did say, "I think it's good to have theist on here for the purpose of conversation" and you can feel free to add your thoughts that you stated as part of that.

There was someone else who recently posted a thread asking about when it's hopeless with theist. I don't believe it's hopeless in the sense of no chance, but there is percentage probability, and I will not loose sleep over night about giving up on this one.

I don't mind a theist coming here to debate, question, or test us. Honestly I've only been on here a very short period of time, so I don't have a stance on what goes on here really. That's up to the community. If I don't feel comfortable with the community then I would go. The problem is this guy has no interest in conversation, even if it is with the intent of simply honing his argument. He is the guy on the street corner holding the sign and yelling at strangers. He's not honest, he's not genuine, he's not sincere. If he came back that way than I'd love to hear what he has to say, even if I disagree with it.

As it stands though, he could care less about this community or learning new ideas, even if he disagrees with them. I know plenty of people in real life who want to shout things about the bible but whose eyes gloss over at every other word that does not come out of there mouth. I appreciate conversation and theist are a part of that, but seriously there are limits. My coworker used to be concerned that there was a rouge planet hiding on the other side of the sun that might one day speed up, hit the earth and kill us all. There are some arguments that can be discussed, but are not really worth our time.

...
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22-06-2013, 11:09 AM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(22-06-2013 02:33 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  The problem is this guy has no interest in conversation, even if it is with the intent of simply honing his argument. He is the guy on the street corner holding the sign and yelling at strangers. He's not honest, he's not genuine, he's not sincere. If he came back that way than I'd love to hear what he has to say, even if I disagree with it.

I perhaps have a bit more empathy because, at one time, I was just like him; the church taught me to be an argumentative armchair apologist, ready to "destroy" anybody on the topics of evolution or God's existence. Obviously I had a change of heart, and it would be hypocritical of me to think that it's impossible for somebody else from that viewpoint to have a similar conversion. So I like to engage people, even though it sometimes does feel as though nothing will break their mental armor -- cognitive dissonance is a real bitch.

I like your post... good response. Just try to be careful about drawing this distinction between "us" and "them"... most atheists are just as unwilling to entertain doubt or open-mindedness, and can be just as dishonest, disingenuous, and insincere. I don't want to write them off, either.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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22-06-2013, 11:54 AM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(22-06-2013 11:09 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  ...I like your post... good response. Just try to be careful about drawing this distinction between "us" and "them"... most atheists are just as unwilling to entertain doubt or open-mindedness, and can be just as dishonest, disingenuous, and insincere. I don't want to write them off, either.

You are a hundred percent right there. Atheist have no special claim to honesty or open-mindedness. And I am very careful about using the "us" and "them". But in this context I mean "us" as in those in this forum community, and "them" as those who don't really seem to genuinely want to be a part of the community and simply want to attack it.

When I say "us" I have no problem including any theist who is here for the genuine purpose of what this site is here for.

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22-06-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(22-06-2013 11:09 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  ...I perhaps have a bit more empathy because, at one time, I was just like him; the church taught me to be an argumentative armchair apologist, ready to "destroy" anybody on the topics of evolution or God's existence. Obviously I had a change of heart, and it would be hypocritical of me to think that it's impossible for somebody else from that viewpoint to have a similar conversion. So I like to engage people, even though it sometimes does feel as though nothing will break their mental armor -- cognitive dissonance is a real bitch...



I do understand having empathy, but let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Say a woman is in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend. Is it her duty to have empathy for him and try to change him?

Well, if she loves him for really genuine reasons, and knows that he was a foster child, abused himself as a kid and never saw another way, then she may have empathy for him and try to reach through to him.

Can he be blamed for his actions, after all he was abused all his life, and at least he’s not physically harming her? I think that’s bad enough, but now what if that same abusive boyfriend also gloated about the abuse he placed on her and enjoyed it, told her he enjoyed doing it to her and that she deserves it and refuses to consider ever stopping?

I get having empathy, but that does not mean you have to take abuse. He says he likes his negative rep points, and he wants more, he relishes in it. If he is reading write now that you and I are even discussing him he feels a major win. He’s a dick…it’s not about his theist views, open or close-mindedness, it’s that he is a dick for the sake of being a dick. He’s not expressing his views to have a debate, he’s doing it because he likes being a dick…it’s fun and enjoyable to him. There is nothing in that guy that is interested in anything that is happening her other than having a chance to be a dick to atheist…that’s it.

I do believe that there are no lost causes, but there are certainly lost causes for you or me personally. There are people that I’m not in a position to reach, even if they are very close to me in my life. There walls and defenses are too strong and will often flee if the feel like they are being breached, at which point you have no chance with them. They may come around later for any number of reasons which we don’t control, and so may this guy. But for now he is a close-minded abusive dick.

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22-06-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
Fictitious book.

Reality.

Dodgy Only contradiction I've ever noticed.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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22-06-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(22-06-2013 11:55 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I do understand having empathy, but let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Say a woman is in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend. Is it her duty to have empathy for him and try to change him?

Well, if she loves him for really genuine reasons, and knows that he was a foster child, abused himself as a kid and never saw another way, then she may have empathy for him and try to reach through to him.

Can he be blamed for his actions, after all he was abused all his life, and at least he’s not physically harming her? I think that’s bad enough, but now what if that same abusive boyfriend also gloated about the abuse he placed on her and enjoyed it, told her he enjoyed doing it to her and that she deserves it and refuses to consider ever stopping?

I get having empathy, but that does not mean you have to take abuse. He says he likes his negative rep points, and he wants more, he relishes in it. If he is reading write now that you and I are even discussing him he feels a major win. He’s a dick…it’s not about his theist views, open or close-mindedness, it’s that he is a dick for the sake of being a dick. He’s not expressing his views to have a debate, he’s doing it because he likes being a dick…it’s fun and enjoyable to him. There is nothing in that guy that is interested in anything that is happening her other than having a chance to be a dick to atheist…that’s it.

I do believe that there are no lost causes, but there are certainly lost causes for you or me personally. There are people that I’m not in a position to reach, even if they are very close to me in my life. There walls and defenses are too strong and will often flee if the feel like they are being breached, at which point you have no chance with them. They may come around later for any number of reasons which we don’t control, and so may this guy. But for now he is a close-minded abusive dick.

It's funny that we're arguing this, because I just basically told Ralph Ellis a day or two ago that our arguments weren't fruitful and weren't likely to ever be because he refused to be fair with the evidence. I "wrote him off", and here I am claiming that we shouldn't do that to our opponents. The difference between the two is that I don't see the same level of close-mindedness from this particular guy, although I could be wrong.

So more on point, empathy is important -- if you really "understood having empathy", you wouldn't follow that up with an argument about why it isn't important. If you want to understand a problem, it couldn't hurt to understand the cause of the problem. The boyfriend's violence seems to be caused by a childhood of violent experience, although we don't know for sure (that could just be post hoc reasoning). If you actually wanted to fix the problem, then one way to do it would be to figure out for certain why he's tempted to be abusive and then fix that root so that his actions are no longer caused by it. Another way to fix it is through punishment.

I have two responses to your thoughts. The first is that you seem to be trying to argue that empathy isn't important, although you didn't demonstrate that by showing a case where it was used and failed, but rather tried to show a situation where you assumed it couldn't be helpful. An emotional knee-jerk reaction is exactly what I'm asking you to step away from here -- look at the problem rationally. The second is that this analogy isn't really fitting because your analogy is of a punishable offense, not a situation that calls for debate. If the guy is abusive then the problem needs fixing, rather than a discussion over the logical arguments for why abuse is called for (or not). So what if "the guy is a dick"? That doesn't mean that all "dicks" everywhere ought to be written off as unfixable just because you think it's true in this one case. The OP of this thread doesn't need to be "fixed"... his problems are the same cognitive errors that we all make, because we all have the same brain structure and our thinking works the same. Some of us are less rational than others, which is something I struggle against constantly, even when that means arguing with fellow atheists, but a person can be wrong without being a wrong person. I'd like to focus on his arguments, not his character.

Before you knock empathy, at least recognize where it could help your opponents. Don't you hate it when theists claim that atheists 'worship themselves' or 'are certain that there is no god'? If they could see things from our perspective, they wouldn't make these mistaken assumptions about who we are or what we believe. An empathetic theist would not assume that we enjoy doing evil and don't care about morality. He or she would not simply write rational atheists off because of the examples he or she knows of irrational atheists that are beyond the reach of logic or argument. Empathy is valuable, and you ought to give it a shot before you judge it useless.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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22-06-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
(22-06-2013 02:28 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(22-06-2013 11:55 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I do understand having empathy, but let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Say a woman is in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend. Is it her duty to have empathy for him and try to change him?

Well, if she loves him for really genuine reasons, and knows that he was a foster child, abused himself as a kid and never saw another way, then she may have empathy for him and try to reach through to him.

Can he be blamed for his actions, after all he was abused all his life, and at least he’s not physically harming her? I think that’s bad enough, but now what if that same abusive boyfriend also gloated about the abuse he placed on her and enjoyed it, told her he enjoyed doing it to her and that she deserves it and refuses to consider ever stopping?

I get having empathy, but that does not mean you have to take abuse. He says he likes his negative rep points, and he wants more, he relishes in it. If he is reading write now that you and I are even discussing him he feels a major win. He’s a dick…it’s not about his theist views, open or close-mindedness, it’s that he is a dick for the sake of being a dick. He’s not expressing his views to have a debate, he’s doing it because he likes being a dick…it’s fun and enjoyable to him. There is nothing in that guy that is interested in anything that is happening her other than having a chance to be a dick to atheist…that’s it.

I do believe that there are no lost causes, but there are certainly lost causes for you or me personally. There are people that I’m not in a position to reach, even if they are very close to me in my life. There walls and defenses are too strong and will often flee if the feel like they are being breached, at which point you have no chance with them. They may come around later for any number of reasons which we don’t control, and so may this guy. But for now he is a close-minded abusive dick.

It's funny that we're arguing this, because I just basically told Ralph Ellis a day or two ago that our arguments weren't fruitful and weren't likely to ever be because he refused to be fair with the evidence. I "wrote him off", and here I am claiming that we shouldn't do that to our opponents. The difference between the two is that I don't see the same level of close-mindedness from this particular guy, although I could be wrong.

So more on point, empathy is important -- if you really "understood having empathy", you wouldn't follow that up with an argument about why it isn't important. If you want to understand a problem, it couldn't hurt to understand the cause of the problem. The boyfriend's violence seems to be caused by a childhood of violent experience, although we don't know for sure (that could just be post hoc reasoning). If you actually wanted to fix the problem, then one way to do it would be to figure out for certain why he's tempted to be abusive and then fix that root so that his actions are no longer caused by it. Another way to fix it is through punishment.

I have two responses to your thoughts. The first is that you seem to be trying to argue that empathy isn't important, although you didn't demonstrate that by showing a case where it was used and failed, but rather tried to show a situation where you assumed it couldn't be helpful. An emotional knee-jerk reaction is exactly what I'm asking you to step away from here -- look at the problem rationally. The second is that this analogy isn't really fitting because your analogy is of a punishable offense, not a situation that calls for debate. If the guy is abusive then the problem needs fixing, rather than a discussion over the logical arguments for why abuse is called for (or not). So what if "the guy is a dick"? That doesn't mean that all "dicks" everywhere ought to be written off as unfixable just because you think it's true in this one case. The OP of this thread doesn't need to be "fixed"... his problems are the same cognitive errors that we all make, because we all have the same brain structure and our thinking works the same. Some of us are less rational than others, which is something I struggle against constantly, even when that means arguing with fellow atheists, but a person can be wrong without being a wrong person. I'd like to focus on his arguments, not his character.

Before you knock empathy, at least recognize where it could help your opponents. Don't you hate it when theists claim that atheists 'worship themselves' or 'are certain that there is no god'? If they could see things from our perspective, they wouldn't make these mistaken assumptions about who we are or what we believe. An empathetic theist would not assume that we enjoy doing evil and don't care about morality. He or she would not simply write rational atheists off because of the examples he or she knows of irrational atheists that are beyond the reach of logic or argument. Empathy is valuable, and you ought to give it a shot before you judge it useless.

Go look at the 2 boxing ring matches he abandoned when presented with any evidence. He is not here to discuss or learn he's made up his mind and wants to preach.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-06-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
Oh, this is easy.

1 John 4:8 Wrote:Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

God curses Adam and Eve for eating his apples.

Murders almost all of the human race with Noah's flood.

Destroys the cities Sodom and Gomorrah.

Murders all of the firstborn male babies of Egypt.

Murders a cavalry of Egyptians with the red sea.

Murders dozens of Israelites in the desert for various reasons such as being too old (in their 30s) or having the wrong kind of altar fire.

He even then murders Moses for not giving him enough credit.

He commands the Israelites to murder the Caananites; steal their land, enslave and rape their women and children.

He murders David's newborn child, then makes David choose and angel to go on a killing spree out of the 3 options of that and invasion or plague.

He then later has the Babylonians invade and murder and enslave Israel and Judah.
Then after this he has his own son (who may even be himself) tortured to death, and promises that anyone who doesn't believe all this and serve him will be tortured forever after this.

Then he promises to destroy the world, again, at the end, and promises to murder Satan for telling Adam and Eve to eat his apples (not for killing Job's family and afflicting him, God authorised Satan to do that).

(That list is very incomplete by the way)

Therefore, God is claimed to be the epitome of love, but acts like the epitome of evil; that's a bit of a massive fucking contradiction.

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22-06-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Atheist Bible Contradiction Challenge
Umm How is pointing out a contradiction in the Bible a challenge?

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