Atheist Scientists
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28-01-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(28-01-2015 11:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 11:54 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Q, if there was actually evidence for Jebus, then the seminal paper for it's justification would be earth shattering. The reason why no one mentions deities in science is that there is absolutely no reason to invoke one. No one wins NIH funding for invoking jesus because nothing having to do with it is testable. Why should anyone get funding for a hypothesis where no experiment may be designed? The NIH couldn't care less on what a person's personal views are but in terms of science, god has never had a place in it and it is pretty obvious why. I kind of doubt that you ever have read an NIH grant proposal. Drinking Beverage

In my past life, I worked for a college of medicine at a university where I edited stuff for PIs and even our department chair.

The problem is the sweeping statements you are making like " in terms of science, god has never had a place in it and it is pretty obvious why". First, God had the premier place in science for millennia until the "Enlightenment". Your biases are showing. XYZ!

And your biased aren't? That ALL depends on what you considered "science" to mean. There are plenty of people who don't consider science to have been a actual understood field until the Enlightenment so it would be fitting.

It's a phrase that also can mean in terms of the natural world, and there is a different debate there than the object you tried to bring up.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-01-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
Scientists have private lives too, so it's not like this has to be restricted to discussions about religion as it pertains to work. What it tells me is that many scientists have concluded that the primary reason why people believe in a higher power is to explain the gaps in knowledge. Since science is the process of solving the mysteries of the physical universe, they must be concluding that God has no place in the real world since there were many instances of errors in the bible as our knowledge expands. I don't know what the official statistics are for the percent of Americans who are atheist, but I would bet that whatever that number is, you could probably triple or quadruple it to get closer to the real number. My guess is that today, roughly 40% of the people in the US do not believe in christianity. They may not explicitly state this, but c'mon...how strong of a believer are you if you choose to not go to church yet still call yourself a christian? I know a number of people who call themselves christian but do not actively pray nor practice their faith. I would classify them as "soft" atheists as opposed to actual christians.
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29-01-2015, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2015 09:29 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Atheist Scientists
(28-01-2015 11:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In my past life, I worked for a college of medicine at a university where I edited stuff for PIs and even our department chair.

The problem is the sweeping statements you are making like " in terms of science, god has never had a place in it and it is pretty obvious why". First, God had the premier place in science for millennia until the "Enlightenment". Your biases are showing. XYZ!

If by biased you mean biased to seeking out reality, then yes, I am biased. Also, the time that you are referring to prior to the Enlightenment, "science" was operating on ideas that were demonstrably wrong (If you don't know what I an referring to, do some homework). Your "past life" should tell you how silly your assertion was and makes you look even more ridiculous as you should be familiar with why no one invokes god on a grant proposal, largely for the reasons that I said. If you're so damn smart, and if the evidence is so compelling, be the first to get an NIH grant. Prove me wrong. Otherwise shut up. Drinking Beverage

Edit: BTW, secretaries can edit a grant proposal for english/grammar without having a clue what it is about. Your point is useless.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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29-01-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(28-01-2015 10:34 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Since science is the process of solving the mysteries of the physical universe, they must be concluding that God has no place in the real world since there were many instances of errors in the bible as our knowledge expands.

As a scientist, I would not put it that way. I would say that we don't invoke the supernatural without ruling out the natural first. Biblical errors do not constitute evidence that there is no higher power, just that the claims of the bible are wrong. Those are 2 totally different things. There still could be a higher power out there relative to us but it does not interact with our lives or care about our existence. While I would agree that there is no evidence to suggest that there is a god or that one was even needed to make the universe as it is based on what we have learned, you still cannot say that science has concluded that there is no place for a deity simply because the authors of the bible were ignorant. Just my $0.02.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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29-01-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(29-01-2015 09:28 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 10:34 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Since science is the process of solving the mysteries of the physical universe, they must be concluding that God has no place in the real world since there were many instances of errors in the bible as our knowledge expands.

As a scientist, I would not put it that way. I would say that we don't invoke the supernatural without ruling out the natural first. Biblical errors do not constitute evidence that there is no higher power, just that the claims of the bible are wrong. Those are 2 totally different things. There still could be a higher power out there relative to us but it does not interact with our lives or care about our existence. While I would agree that there is no evidence to suggest that there is a god or that one was even needed to make the universe as it is based on what we have learned, you still cannot say that science has concluded that there is no place for a deity simply because the authors of the bible were ignorant. Just my $0.02.

I was lazy in how I wrote that last response. I think it comes down to a "God of the Gaps" argument. Before we knew about the intricacies of the natural world, natural phenomena tended to be viewed as supernatural events - like eclipses. As our knowledge expanded, what was once "supernatural" was later found to be explainable natural phenomena. My point was that scientists may feel that a supernatural being has no place in the real world because those gaps are being filled in.

Granted you make a great point that we cannot know if there is a supernatural being who created everything and does not interact with us based on the deist beliefs. However, it's probably reasonable to say that based on errors and contradictions found in a holy book someone can make a reasonable conclusion that a specific deity or group of deities do not exist when studied specifically.
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29-01-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
We're hitting this well now in a related thread. I agree that by the very nature of science combined with the fact that the Christian god hides Himself from sinners, we cannot ever call a scientific conference and "prove" things to nonbelievers. Yes.

I've done secretarial work, by the way, but was the Director of Special Projects (like Dirk Pitt for NUMA, man!) for a department specializing in "tier 1" research with NIH and other grants. I did everything from "editing" and "understanding" to coaching faculty on how to get tenure and then building collaborations with faculty. I had to meet with faculty and justify their salary increases, also, based on grants, teaching, achievement, etc. which required me to understand some of their work, yes.

I know... you didn't think The Q had it in them (or is it him--problem with being part of a hive mind like The Borg).

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-01-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(29-01-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We're hitting this well now in a related thread. I agree that by the very nature of science combined with the fact that the Christian god hides Himself from sinners, we cannot ever call a scientific conference and "prove" things to nonbelievers. Yes.

I've done secretarial work, by the way, but was the Director of Special Projects (like Dirk Pitt for NUMA, man!) for a department specializing in "tier 1" research with NIH and other grants. I did everything from "editing" and "understanding" to coaching faculty on how to get tenure and then building collaborations with faculty. I had to meet with faculty and justify their salary increases, also, based on grants, teaching, achievement, etc. which required me to understand some of their work, yes.

I know... you didn't think The Q had it in them (or is it him--problem with being part of a hive mind like The Borg).

No, not really. There are dishonest people in all walks of life.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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30-01-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(29-01-2015 03:16 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(29-01-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We're hitting this well now in a related thread. I agree that by the very nature of science combined with the fact that the Christian god hides Himself from sinners, we cannot ever call a scientific conference and "prove" things to nonbelievers. Yes.

I've done secretarial work, by the way, but was the Director of Special Projects (like Dirk Pitt for NUMA, man!) for a department specializing in "tier 1" research with NIH and other grants. I did everything from "editing" and "understanding" to coaching faculty on how to get tenure and then building collaborations with faculty. I had to meet with faculty and justify their salary increases, also, based on grants, teaching, achievement, etc. which required me to understand some of their work, yes.

I know... you didn't think The Q had it in them (or is it him--problem with being part of a hive mind like The Borg).

No, not really. There are dishonest people in all walks of life.

There have always been honest and dishonest people, and people who are a bit of both and at different times. What does that have to do with the nature of hidden truths and scientific inquiry, may I ask?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-01-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(29-01-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We're hitting this well now in a related thread. I agree that by the very nature of science combined with the fact that the Christian god hides Himself from sinners, we cannot ever call a scientific conference and "prove" things to nonbelievers. Yes.

Wrong. Your god hides itself even from the most righteous. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, ("Dark Night of the Soul" and all that). Even from Mother Teresa, (who said in one of her recently published letters : "That which i see in myself I dare not name" ... she had become an atheist. Bonhoeffer had become an atheist. So, sorry Mr. Fundie Guy. Your Jubus must just be pretty damn shy. Confused

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-02-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: Atheist Scientists
(30-01-2015 02:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-01-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We're hitting this well now in a related thread. I agree that by the very nature of science combined with the fact that the Christian god hides Himself from sinners, we cannot ever call a scientific conference and "prove" things to nonbelievers. Yes.

Wrong. Your god hides itself even from the most righteous. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, ("Dark Night of the Soul" and all that). Even from Mother Teresa, (who said in one of her recently published letters : "That which i see in myself I dare not name" ... she had become an atheist. Bonhoeffer had become an atheist. So, sorry Mr. Fundie Guy. Your Jubus must just be pretty damn shy. Confused

Why mention your (specious) ideas on Bonhoeffer and Teresa? Why not just say all the deconverted people here are in your group? Because nothing of what you said has to do with my point which is regarding exposing Jesus to groups and not individuals. The people you cited were individuals making statements in documents or confessionals...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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