Atheist Trump Card?
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06-05-2013, 11:10 PM
Atheist Trump Card?
I always see the Burden of Proof theists never seem to meet, constantly try to shift, or are just ignorant of, as the atheist's trump card in any theological debate. Perhaps to back this assertion up that I've observed, is even if you give them the benefit of the doubt, and give them a hypothetical situation of "Maybe a god exists" as a freebie, I always like to point out that they're still light years away from proving it is THEIR god, and not many, not two, or not one of the other 9,999 humans have dreamed up over the millennia of our existence.

I have never seen even ONE theist come back with a valid answer to this, other than some redirected statement, appeal to faith, or some other non-sensical answer. In other words, I've always seen this shut them down in an argument.

IMO, I see this as perhaps the very cornerstone to atheism and the argument against religion.

Thoughts?

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06-05-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
The problem is convincing them that it's a huge hole in their overall construct. They'll simply plug their ears and insist that it's not, or they'll run around like retarded chickens squawking about how "Jesus saves!" and "Let him into your heart!"

That sounds like hyperbole, but I literally had an old guy start barking about how Jesus saves when I asked him a tough question.

"Sir, really, I'm being sincere with my question; could you just..."

"Jesus saves! He loves you; open your heart to him!"

"Yes, but I'm really not understanding why you..."

"HE LOVES YOU! It's right here in the Bible!"

"The fuck, bro..."

"You swore, I'm offended, good day."

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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06-05-2013, 11:24 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
What always gets me is when they try to claim WE'RE the ones being closed minded. I'm completely open to the idea of a god. I just won't buy into it via baseless assertions. Why they have to be such whiny asshats about it is beyond me. I boil it down to two things. Their "Precious", namely their idea of salvation/eternal life/heaven/reward and/or their fear of damnation, or just simply what others will think of them.

I hate to generalize, but as far as motive, I can't see anything else that wouldn't stem from one of those two, or both of those very things that keeps them going.

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06-05-2013, 11:29 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
(06-05-2013 11:24 PM)KMFDM_Kid2000 Wrote:  What always gets me is when they try to claim WE'RE the ones being closed minded. I'm completely open to the idea of a god. I just won't buy into it via baseless assertions. Why they have to be such whiny asshats about it is beyond me. I boil it down to two things. Their "Precious", namely their idea of salvation/eternal life/heaven/reward and/or their fear of damnation, or just simply what others will think of them.

I hate to generalize, but as far as motive, I can't see anything else that wouldn't stem from one of those two, or both of those very things that keeps them going.

Well, as a former believer, I can attest to the fact that many of them are just deluded. They believe what they believe because it's what they believe, and their minds have been programed to avoid believing anything else. (Doubt is only evidence that the Devil is tempting them, after all)

I think of it this way: When you're dead asleep and having an incredibly vivid dream, it feels like reality. Your heart races and you become scared (or aroused - whatever you may be dreaming about Wink ) and some even talk to the dream-people in their sleep.

But then, when you wake up in a cold sweat and come back to consciousness after a few moments; you realize just how imaginary it all was. You now realize that it was a dream, and that you've come back to reality. That's what belief feels like. It's vivid and real and interactive. You swear it's reality. But then you wake up and realize just how imaginary it all was.

Unfortunately, some never wake up. And yet, because they aren't awake to see the difference, they insist we're the ones who are asleep.

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07-05-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
I agree with the stuff in this thread. The problem though, regarding the burden of proof, is largely that many theists either have no understanding of the burden of proof, or they refuse to listen and start yelling at you to let god into your heart. I've heard it too fucking many times. "If you opened your mind..." "Just ask god to come into your life" "Ask God for a sign..." "Let Jeebus into your heart." and one of my nonfavorites: "I KNOW God is real because I FEEL him in my heart." Feeling him in your heart? That's about as compelling an argument as a paranoid telling me they can feel invisible death rays being sent into their brain by Bill Gates through the computers, and about equally insane.

Another problem is they don't understand that people of other faiths are just as certain that theirs is the right god (or gods), just because of the religion they were indoctrinated into. It's all about geography (and/or your parents and where they were from). But apparently indoctrination causes a huge blind spot there, and they start thinking their woo-feelings are evidence, and it all goes to pot from there.

The problem that remains is that, in your mind, you know for damned sure that your argument makes more sense, but logic doesn't exist in their world, so no real communication is possible. Also, they usually think the existence of god is "obvious," and that's what makes them shift the burden of proof, and tell atheists it's on us to prove god's nonexistence. It's a different way of seeing the world, they see god everywhere, atheists see god nowhere, even if they are looking at the same things.
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07-05-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
If I may, humans fear death, the need for religion connects into that. Even multitheistic religions want to connect humans into a place that is connected to the earth that they may inhabit it for a long time (a much better idea in my mind if also flawed).

Religion often softens the idea of death. That is what makes it so powerful for so many.

Logic admits death. Logic must be countered by belief if one is to avoid death. This is a very powerful argument for belief and logic no matter how obvious does not counter the need for belief and therefore no death.
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07-05-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
I'd love to respond, but first you can tell me why the "999" religions you mentioned aren't proof that there is a God.

I'm not talking of "ad populum" proof but the Occam's Razor deduction since most religions have a flood story, a God triumphing over a devil, resurrection, heaven and hell, etc.
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07-05-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
PleaseJesus, "please, please, please, baby please don't go". The question about 999 versions of god (I prefer 666, a wonderful highway in New Mexico) is not so much that numbers prove existence it is about which one should one believe in and how does one chose.

I will also submit that "Occam's Razor" is the result of a weak person. One who fears death. The natural result of life.
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07-05-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
(07-05-2013 11:13 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'd love to respond, but first you can tell me why the "999" religions you mentioned aren't proof that there is a God.

I'm not talking of "ad populum" proof but the Occam's Razor deduction since most religions have a flood story, a God triumphing over a devil, resurrection, heaven and hell, etc.

In the excellent book "Why God Won't Go Away" (Newberg, D'Aquili, Rause), our brain's response to ritual worship was documented quite well. It could be Catholic Mass, yoga meditation or any other form of ritual that fires specific neurons in our brains. It's a biological response.

Now, we could argue whether "God" made it that way or whether it's the outcome of millions of years of evolution - whether worship provided yet another bonding ritual for human communities that enabled us to survive. But there is a very strong argument to be made for the biological need for us to believe. That doesn't mean there's a God.

I like the Richard Dawkins quote: “We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”
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07-05-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Atheist Trump Card?
Religion is proof that religion exists. What they postulate is contrary to what can be observed in reality. To be really effective, they would need to prove what they assert, prove the existence of the metaphysical, prove an intelligent deity exists, prove that this deity is THEIR deity (or plural). That's a strict evaluation of what they would need. In all honesty, my skepticism would be satisfied with much less. Just something definitive and verifiable, and unmistakable will do.

I saw something on Facebook recently, Wouldn't it have been MORE of a miracle if the Holy Spirit impregnated Joseph? Unwed girls get knocked up all the time.

I'd be pretty freaked if a second sun/star appeared with no natural explanation. But that's still not proof of god, that's proof of a second sun/star. If god is indeed living, as well as omni-everything, he's got my number, and knows what it would take.

They've got an uphill battle. Not only do they have to prove all of their assertions, but to be taken completely seriously, what they say has to somehow line up with what we already know, definitively disprove it, or show why it does not. They'd have a lot of 'splaining to do.

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