Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-02-2017, 03:14 PM
Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
Well in the christian sense anyway. I view Islam as being a much greater threat.

I've come to the realization that some my disconnect is due to my not being an anti-theist. While I can certainly understand why people are lead down that path my own experiences have (luckily) been with non pushy Christians. Apparently the fact that I was always thought to be an Atheist or a Mormon seemed to keep them away for some reason.As I have always been at least agnostic religious things haven't really changed for me.There is no catalyst, well I was an uber liberal socialist at one point but that's another ball of wax.

I have no issue with "Under God" being in the pledge or on the money or religious prayers in public. I tend to focus on more economic issues anyway with social issues being further down the list of priorities. I do think having people focus primary on different areas has its own benefits.

For those that were religious and are Anti-Theist did your deconversion become a catalyst to an Anti-theist position? Your experiences as a religious person?

For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

Because of my Alexithymia (emotion blindness) and my Non verbal learning disability (NVLD)emotions tend to be viewed as intellectual concepts and not something people physically feel. Basically I have intellectual empathy and not emotional empathy.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 04:20 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  Well in the christian sense anyway. I view Islam as being a much greater threat.

I've come to the realization that some my disconnect is due to my not being an anti-theist. While I can certainly understand why people are lead down that path my own experiences have (luckily) been with non pushy Christians. Apparently the fact that I was always thought to be an Atheist or a Mormon seemed to keep them away for some reason.As I have always been at least agnostic religious things haven't really changed for me.There is no catalyst, well I was an uber liberal socialist at one point but that's another ball of wax.

I have no issue with "Under God" being in the pledge or on the money or religious prayers in public. I tend to focus on more economic issues anyway with social issues being further down the list of priorities. I do think having people focus primary on different areas has its own benefits.

For those that were religious and are Anti-Theist did your deconversion become a catalyst to an Anti-theist position? Your experiences as a religious person?

For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

Because of my Alexithymia (emotion blindness) and my Non verbal learning disability (NVLD)emotions tend to be viewed as intellectual concepts and not something people physically feel. Basically I have intellectual empathy and not emotional empathy.

For me, it's intellectual. It comes from a recognition of the harm that religion does to people, to society, and to the world. (Or, more specifically, that faith does. I'm an anti-theist, but that's primarily an offshoot of being an anti-pistevist.)

Little things like "In God We Trust" in the pledge, in the motto, and on the walls of government buildings are in and of themselves small potatoes, until they get used as weapons by the religious against us. Small things like these build up into a large, often subconscious equating of patriotism and religion, to the point where I've been hearing broadcasts with large audiences calling atheists traitors to the country simply for being atheists. When I become aware that the audience members trend more heavily-armed and less... well, let's just say less-inclined-towards-cosmopolitanism, that's a serious threat.

For my buck, the bigger threat is in the schools. Science curriculum being gutted to appease the reactionaries. Teachers feeling free, even justified and righteous, in proselytizing to audiences made captive by the law. Persecution of atheist students by Christian bullies in an attempt to force them into the faith... bullies that have in cases been organized by adults and encouraged by preachers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Reltzik's post
05-02-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

When I started noticing...
... demands to "teach the controversy" about creationism
... refusal to fund stem cell research
... insistence on abstinence-only sex-ed
... refusal to fund any group that even mentioned abortion as an option
... demands to discriminate on religious grounds
--- refusals to provide healthcare that included contraception
and everything else based on irrational beliefs and not evidence. Things like the pledge are trivial except that they open the door for "It's a Christian nation" and if you give an inch they'll take a mile (for you non-Americans, if you give a centimeter they'll take a kilometer Big Grin)

I see nothing of value in religion that can't be had without it and plenty of damage in its wake.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like unfogged's post
05-02-2017, 04:52 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

I'm not anti-theist... I'm anti-theism.

In prosaic terms, I'm not anti the sinner... merely anti the sin. Don't wanna go around victim blaming, that would be bad form... just not cricket, what?

If someone enters into a contract (in this case a social contract of believing and therefore behaving in a certain way) of their own free will, well, OK... not much I can do about that. I'll just put them in a category of Non-critical Thinker.

But if someone in authority hit "Install" on the Religion App before the age of consent ... grrrrrr!

So, for me the catalyst was a mix of sadness and anger stemming from an anti-authoritarian instinct. Child abuse saddens and angers me.

Angry

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like DLJ's post
05-02-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 04:20 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  Well in the christian sense anyway. I view Islam as being a much greater threat.

I've come to the realization that some my disconnect is due to my not being an anti-theist. While I can certainly understand why people are lead down that path my own experiences have (luckily) been with non pushy Christians. Apparently the fact that I was always thought to be an Atheist or a Mormon seemed to keep them away for some reason.As I have always been at least agnostic religious things haven't really changed for me.There is no catalyst, well I was an uber liberal socialist at one point but that's another ball of wax.

I have no issue with "Under God" being in the pledge or on the money or religious prayers in public. I tend to focus on more economic issues anyway with social issues being further down the list of priorities. I do think having people focus primary on different areas has its own benefits.

For those that were religious and are Anti-Theist did your deconversion become a catalyst to an Anti-theist position? Your experiences as a religious person?

For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

Because of my Alexithymia (emotion blindness) and my Non verbal learning disability (NVLD)emotions tend to be viewed as intellectual concepts and not something people physically feel. Basically I have intellectual empathy and not emotional empathy.

For me, it's intellectual. It comes from a recognition of the harm that religion does to people, to society, and to the world. (Or, more specifically, that faith does. I'm an anti-theist, but that's primarily an offshoot of being an anti-pistevist.)

Little things like "In God We Trust" in the pledge, in the motto, and on the walls of government buildings are in and of themselves small potatoes, until they get used as weapons by the religious against us. Small things like these build up into a large, often subconscious equating of patriotism and religion, to the point where I've been hearing broadcasts with large audiences calling atheists traitors to the country simply for being atheists. When I become aware that the audience members trend more heavily-armed and less... well, let's just say less-inclined-towards-cosmopolitanism, that's a serious threat.

For my buck, the bigger threat is in the schools. Science curriculum being gutted to appease the reactionaries. Teachers feeling free, even justified and righteous, in proselytizing to audiences made captive by the law. Persecution of atheist students by Christian bullies in an attempt to force them into the faith... bullies that have in cases been organized by adults and encouraged by preachers.

I can see how that would be a problem. I suppose part of my problem is I look at those Christians around me and assume most people are like them. I subscribe to content across the the spectrum and what little I have seen I figured it was in the minority.
I have been lucky enough to not experience that.My teachers were mainly of the"believe what you want but be able to defend it" variety. My favorite activity was drawing topics out of a cup and having to defend them regardless of your personal opinion. I rarely ended up agreeing but I learn so much from it. Opinions were given in a here's what i believe and here's why. I also went to a large school so and live in a large suburb so that is a contributing factor.

Thank you for your comment.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 05:17 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 04:52 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

I'm not anti-theist... I'm anti-theism.

In prosaic terms, I'm not anti the sinner... merely anti the sin. Don't wanna go around victim blaming, that would be bad form... just not cricket, what?

If someone enters into a contract (in this case a social contract of believing and therefore behaving in a certain way) of their own free will, well, OK... not much I can do about that. I'll just put them in a category of Non-critical Thinker.

But if someone in authority hit "Install" on the Religion App before the age of consent ... grrrrrr!

So, for me the catalyst was a mix of sadness and anger stemming from an anti-authoritarian instinct. Child abuse saddens and angers me.

Angry

Yes,Anti-Theism would be the better wording.My first thought was:who says that kids will believe it? but most kids aren't hyperlexic and reading the Bible at 8 and saying this is ridiculous either.My own experiences have clouded this issue and I'm figuring out it is more prevalent than I had realized.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 05:36 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 05:09 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  I can see how that would be a problem. I suppose part of my problem is I look at those Christians around me and assume most people are like them. I subscribe to content across the the spectrum and what little I have seen I figured it was in the minority.

It is, just like extremism is a minority among Muslims. The problem is that the extremists in both camps have a fervor and disregard for others that makes up for their lack of numbers.

And... I don't really have the conceptual tools for arguing extremists out of their faith that DON'T argue moderates out of their faith as well. And given that the moderates provide legitimacy for the extremists, for the most part aren't keeping the extremists in check, and often try to instill in others the same doctrines that the extremists then leverage to recruit people into extremism, I'm not particularly motivated to exempt them. I can't be surgical when the patient isn't cooperative and all my tools are chain saws rather than scalpels.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Reltzik's post
05-02-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 04:28 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:14 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  For those who were never religious did you have a catalyst? Was it emotional or intellectual?

When I started noticing...
... demands to "teach the controversy" about creationism
... refusal to fund stem cell research
... insistence on abstinence-only sex-ed
... refusal to fund any group that even mentioned abortion as an option
... demands to discriminate on religious grounds
--- refusals to provide healthcare that included contraception
and everything else based on irrational beliefs and not evidence. Things like the pledge are trivial except that they open the door for "It's a Christian nation" and if you give an inch they'll take a mile (for you non-Americans, if you give a centimeter they'll take a kilometer Big Grin)

I see nothing of value in religion that can't be had without it and plenty of damage in its wake.

As to your points from my perspective:

I never saw the teach the controversy thing i my experience but again I was super lucky when it came to teachers.

Stem cells is a topic I am still learning about so I'll withhold judgement.

I manged to avoid all sex ed taking instead medical classes so I can't speak to how it played out in my school. I am pro-abstinence (I'm anti-sex personally but I'm also asexual as hell so it doesn't involve me anyway) with an emphasis on pregnancy reduction tips including teaching girls about how to tell if or when they are fertile. Honestly I thought people who liked sex were mentally ill until my mid 20s so there's that.

The government or individuals? I'm on the government should stay out of things like marriage and healthcare side so if they don't fund things and it's legal for them to not do so I'm fine with it. Individuals can do what they want,they just have to deal with the consequences.

Again it depends on the entity or individual.A private business that doesn't receive government funding can do whatever they want within the law. The consumer can choose to support them or not. In the age of the internet things are more accessible , and to that fact I give online businesses more leeway because there are more options.

Ah, I(an uninsured disabled woman) think 1: there should be a difference between health insurance and health maintenance. 2: that healthcare isn't a right it's a privilege.3: reproductive care is separate and should be funded by the individual. Insurance is part of the problem anyway.But that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your response.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 05:48 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 05:36 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 05:09 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  I can see how that would be a problem. I suppose part of my problem is I look at those Christians around me and assume most people are like them. I subscribe to content across the the spectrum and what little I have seen I figured it was in the minority.

It is, just like extremism is a minority among Muslims. The problem is that the extremists in both camps have a fervor and disregard for others that makes up for their lack of numbers.

And... I don't really have the conceptual tools for arguing extremists out of their faith that DON'T argue moderates out of their faith as well. And given that the moderates provide legitimacy for the extremists, for the most part aren't keeping the extremists in check, and often try to instill in others the same doctrines that the extremists then leverage to recruit people into extremism, I'm not particularly motivated to exempt them. I can't be surgical when the patient isn't cooperative and all my tools are chain saws rather than scalpels.
I'd say there are more extremists among Islam due to the all encompassing nature of it (look at how places like Sweden and Germany are fairing)but your point is noted.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 06:02 PM
RE: Atheist but not an Anti-Theist
(05-02-2017 05:44 PM)Thatconservativeatheist Wrote:  I never saw the teach the controversy thing i my experience but again I was super lucky when it came to teachers.

It never affected me directly either but I see it affecting others. I don't limit my views to my personal situation.

Quote:I manged to avoid all sex ed taking instead medical classes so I can't speak to how it played out in my school. I am pro-abstinence (I'm anti-sex personally but I'm also asexual as hell so it doesn't involve me anyway) with an emphasis on pregnancy reduction tips including teaching girls about how to tell if or when they are fertile. Honestly I thought people who liked sex were mentally ill until my mid 20s so there's that.

Advocating abstinence is fine but abstinence-only education is a real problem. It doesn't give teens the information they need to understand what is going on ad what the risks are and what they can do to avoid them. It's been repeatedly shown that it is totally ineffective in reducing STDs and unwanted pregnancies.

Quote:The government or individuals? I'm on the government should stay out of things like marriage and healthcare side so if they don't fund things and it's legal for them to not do so I'm fine with it. Individuals can do what they want,they just have to deal with the consequences.

Not entirely sure what you were replying to... if it was in regard to contraception as part of healthcare then it is not a matter of not facing consequences; it's a medical issue for many that needs to be a part of their overall healthcare.

Quote:Again it depends on the entity or individual.A private business that doesn't receive government funding can do whatever they want within the law. The consumer can choose to support them or not. In the age of the internet things are more accessible , and to that fact I give online businesses more leeway because there are more options.

Again, not quite sure what that is in regard to... I respect a public/private distinction but the US system ties healthcare to employment which effectively entangles private and public.

Quote:Ah, I(an uninsured disabled woman) think 1: there should be a difference between health insurance and health maintenance.

You'd have to define how you are using those terms.

Quote:2: that healthcare isn't a right it's a privilege.

Who decides? What do you have to do to earn the privilege?

Quote:3: reproductive care is separate and should be funded by the individual.

Reproductive care is part of healthcare. Why would you extract that and not digestive care or circulatory care or the care of any other system?

Quote:Insurance is part of the problem anyway.But that's just my opinion.

I agree that insurance is part of the problem. The system in the US is totally fucked in my opinion and we need to get the private insurance companies out of standard healthcare.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like unfogged's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: