Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
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09-03-2016, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2016 07:31 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(07-03-2016 09:49 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 07:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd wonder where that line between normalcy and mental illness begins in the identity question. Would we say the lady whose white but identifies as black has a mental illness? How about the transgender adult male who identifies as a six year old girl, is that a mental illness?

Or the girl who identifies as a cat, is that a mental illness?

The brain of a transgender person is that of the other gender. There are many physical aspects that denote one's gender and one of them is in the brain During development in the womb many aspects of the brain are influenced by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to. Most scientific evidence points to specific areas of the brain being opposite of the bodies gender. It's actually easier to physically change the body than the brain.

I think most of the science in regards to sexuality and sexual identity is bit circumspect. Identical Twin studies more revealing here, which suggests that transgenderism, is hardly biologically determined.

So it doesn't seem to be the case that our sexual identify is determined by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to.

But would you say the lady who identifies as a black woman, and the man who identifies as a sex year old girl, suffer from mental illness, but not traditional transgendered individuals per se.

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09-03-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(09-03-2016 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 09:49 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The brain of a transgender person is that of the other gender. There are many physical aspects that denote one's gender and one of them is in the brain During development in the womb many aspects of the brain are influenced by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to. Most scientific evidence points to specific areas of the brain being opposite of the bodies gender. It's actually easier to physically change the body than the brain.

I think most of the science in regards to sexuality and sexual identity is bit circumspect. Identical Twin studies more revealing here, which suggests that transgenderism, is hardly biologically determined.

So it doesn't seem to be the case that our sexual identify is determined by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to.

But would you say the lady who identifies as a black woman, and the man who identifies as a sex year old girl, suffer from mental illness, but not traditional transgendered individuals per se.

No, but that's because you seem to want to think a low level amount of info is good enough to use to make a statement on though.

Also the case of identical twins getting the exact same hormone levels isn't certain, that actually can be altered and affected by the process of distribution in the womb and potential complication. One twin might be able to get exposed in another way

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09-03-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(09-03-2016 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 09:49 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The brain of a transgender person is that of the other gender. There are many physical aspects that denote one's gender and one of them is in the brain During development in the womb many aspects of the brain are influenced by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to. Most scientific evidence points to specific areas of the brain being opposite of the bodies gender. It's actually easier to physically change the body than the brain.

I think most of the science in regards to sexuality and sexual identity is bit circumspect. Identical Twin studies more revealing here, which suggests that transgenderism, is hardly biologically determined.

So it doesn't seem to be the case that our sexual identify is determined by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to.

But would you say the lady who identifies as a black woman, and the man who identifies as a sex year old girl, suffer from mental illness, but not traditional transgendered individuals per se.

There are many twins who are transgender.

Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation.
Garcia-Falgueras A1, Swaab DF.
2010

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

Each twin fetus can have different amounts of hormones that trigger brain development. This happens in fraternal twins but has been noted in same gender twins.

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10-03-2016, 06:05 AM
Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
"Levin firmly believes that the research conducted so far investigating the biological reasons behind transgender identity have been inconsistent in their results — yet those studies make sense on a intellectual level.
Nevertheless, she cautions that to definitively say, yes the cause of transgender identity can be biologically traced, is to discount the transgender experience of people who — when tested — may not reveal a biological connection.
“My fear,” she says, “is that if, in the end, we can claim that there is a genetic basis or hormonal basis — if one doesn’t have that gene or that hormone exposure but knows oneself to be trans, then that doesn’t mean you are any less trans than someone who does have it.
“I think this biological determinism is frightening. I do think there is a chance there is a biological component, but I have serious doubts to whether we’ll ever find it.”


https://www.inverse.com/article/12630-th...nsgendered

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10-03-2016, 06:10 AM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(10-03-2016 06:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Levin firmly believes that the research conducted so far investigating the biological reasons behind transgender identity have been inconsistent in their results — yet those studies make sense on a intellectual level.
Nevertheless, she cautions that to definitively say, yes the cause of transgender identity can be biologically traced, is to discount the transgender experience of people who — when tested — may not reveal a biological connection.
“My fear,” she says, “is that if, in the end, we can claim that there is a genetic basis or hormonal basis — if one doesn’t have that gene or that hormone exposure but knows oneself to be trans, then that doesn’t mean you are any less trans than someone who does have it.
“I think this biological determinism is frightening. I do think there is a chance there is a biological component, but I have serious doubts to whether we’ll ever find it.”


https://www.inverse.com/article/12630-th...nsgendered

Your point? We are biological creatures, therefore everything we do is biological.

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10-03-2016, 07:19 AM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(09-03-2016 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think most of the science in regards to sexuality and sexual identity is bit circumspect. Identical Twin studies more revealing here, which suggests that transgenderism, is hardly biologically determined.

So it doesn't seem to be the case that our sexual identify is determined by how much testosterone and estrogen the fetus is exposed to.

I look forward to reading your peer-reviewed journal paper citing all scientific literature in this regard.

(09-03-2016 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But would you say the lady who identifies as a black woman, and the man who identifies as a sex year old girl, suffer from mental illness, but not traditional transgendered individuals per se.

Different parts of the brain are involved.

With the lady who identifies as a black woman and the man who identifies as a six year old girl, assuming that you can scan to a great enough detail, their brain scans would not be normal for any segment of the population. Whereas with a trans-person, their brain scans are normal for the gender that they identify as.

So in that regard, the transperson is not mentally ill whereas the first two examples are.
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10-03-2016, 07:46 AM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
If we're going to start labelling mental and neurophysiological states as mental illness ...

American Psychological Association To Classify Belief in God As a Mental Illness

More reason to classify religious belief as a mental illness because it requires delusion that is not in anyway backed up with any observational or empirical evidence. There is more reproducible evidence for the idea that transgendered people really do have the brains of the opposite gender than there is for the existence of a god that violates the laws of thermodynamics, exists outside of spacetime yet can still interact with it and has the means and power to change things remotely like the germs in your stomach that are making you sick.
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10-03-2016, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2016 08:47 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(10-03-2016 07:19 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Different parts of the brain are involved.

With the lady who identifies as a black woman and the man who identifies as a six year old girl, assuming that you can scan to a great enough detail, their brain scans would not be normal for any segment of the population. Whereas with a trans-person, their brain scans are normal for the gender that they identify as.

So in that regard, the transperson is not mentally ill whereas the first two examples are.


The last article I posted suggested the problem. Imagine a person who doesn't show the expected brain scans of a trans-person, yet they identify as trans, would we say this person is mentally ill, like you would the white woman who identifies as black, or the man who identifies as a six year old girl?

I also don't think you can identify or predict with any real confidence that a person will be transgender, based on brain scans. That's overreaching. The data we have allows for an educated hypothesis to be formed, but not a confident conclusion. The factors are likely complex ones, and not ones that allow a singular narrative based on levels of estrogen etc.. impacting the fetus.

Secondly what it does it mean to biologically identify as a female, take a case like Chris Jenner, who while identifying as female, is not particularly sexually interested in men. What part of the "female" identity is biological, and what parts are culturally formed? What parts of the female identify are "biologically" based, particularly when we're not speaking of body parts, or even attraction to a particular sex?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-03-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
(10-03-2016 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Imagine a person who doesn't show the expected brain scans of a trans-person, yet they identify as trans, would we say this person is mentally ill, like you would the white woman who identifies as black, or the man who identifies as a six year old girl?

Would it be useful to define them as mentally ill? Can they be cured? Is there a better term that we can use? I don't know.


(10-03-2016 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I also don't think you can identify or predict with any real confidence that a person will be transgender, based on brain scans. That's overreaching.

The scientific literature suggests otherwise. There have been numerous papers showing that you are wrong in this regard.


(10-03-2016 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Secondly what it does it mean to biologically identify as a female, take a case like Chris Jenner, who while identifying as female, is not particularly sexually interested in men.

By your standards then lesbians aren't women. You are confusing sexuality with gender identity. There are typical differences between male and female that affect different areas of the brain.



(10-03-2016 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What part of the "female" identity is biological, and what parts are culturally formed? What parts of the female identify are "biologically" based, particularly when we're not speaking of body parts, or even attraction to a particular sex?

Does it matter?

I know that it is difficult for theists to think in non-binary terms, but your brain is a mixture of nature and nurture. A transwoman brought up as a man will still have male conditioning, and this has an effect on the brain. And vice versa for transmen brought up as women. But this is also where the conflict occurs and why gender dysphoria is so painful. This also explains why the only effective cure is to allow the transperson to live the life that resolves this conflict. And the longer they live full time in their chosen gender, being treated as the gender that they believe themselves to be, this helps the brain to reshape as it should do.
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10-03-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Atheist vs. Christian: Transgenders have a mental illness
@Tomasio

Here's a question for you. Take someone who functions perfectly normal as a human being, who everyone else sees as yet another normal human being, and who is not in distress or discomfort. Is it useful to call them mentally ill?
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