Atheistic and Theistic Universes
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08-03-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 07:41 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  No, it doesn't depend on how you do it.
All the positive numbers added to all the negative numbers = 0

... You're not getting what I did inna my post are ya? And yes it *does* Wink Otherwise propose to me precisely how you will add all the negative to all the positive numbers in a non-ambiguous way that respects the known algebraic properties of the addition operation (including transitivity) that will always sum to zero.

Edit: I am specifically referring to the integers here, but you're welcome to use real or complex numbers...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-03-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 12:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 07:41 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  No, it doesn't depend on how you do it.
All the positive numbers added to all the negative numbers = 0

... You're not getting what I did inna my post are ya? And yes it *does* Wink Otherwise propose to me precisely how you will add all the negative to all the positive numbers in a non-ambiguous way that respects the known algebraic properties of the addition operation (including transitivity) that will always sum to zero.

Edit: I am specifically referring to the integers here, but you're welcome to use real or complex numbers...

Of course I got what you were trying to do.
You were trying to give the false impression that the order in which you add all the numbers together matters and it still doesn't.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-03-2015, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 01:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(07-03-2015 02:49 PM)Transfinite Wrote:  To give an example, all of the positive and negative numbers add up to zero even though they individually deviate from nothingness.
(08-03-2015 07:41 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  No, it doesn't depend on how you do it.
All the positive numbers added to all the negative numbers = 0

It most certainly does depend on how you do it. Using Ramanujan summation the sum of all positive integers is -1/12. So you would have to show the Ramanujan sum of all negative integers to be 1/12 for that equation to hold.

(08-03-2015 01:37 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You were trying to give the false impression that the order in which you add all the numbers together matters and it still doesn't.

And yet, despite your objection, it does indeed matter. The Riemann Rearrangement Theorem states that by a suitable rearrangement of terms, a conditionally convergent series may be made to converge to any desired value, or to diverge.

#sigh
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08-03-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 01:37 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 12:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... You're not getting what I did inna my post are ya? And yes it *does* Wink Otherwise propose to me precisely how you will add all the negative to all the positive numbers in a non-ambiguous way that respects the known algebraic properties of the addition operation (including transitivity) that will always sum to zero.

Edit: I am specifically referring to the integers here, but you're welcome to use real or complex numbers...

Of course I got what you were trying to do.
You were trying to give the false impression that the order in which you add all the numbers together matters and it still doesn't.

Bare assertion old bean. What about my post specifically do you contend is false, since you're so certain yourself? Also since you're clear that the numbers do sum to zero kindly illustrate.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-03-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 01:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-03-2015 02:49 PM)Transfinite Wrote:  To give an example, all of the positive and negative numbers add up to zero even though they individually deviate from nothingness.
(08-03-2015 07:41 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  No, it doesn't depend on how you do it.
All the positive numbers added to all the negative numbers = 0

It most certainly does depend on how you do it. Using Ramanujan summation the sum of all positive integers is -1/12. So you would have to show the Ramanujan sum of all negative integers to be 1/12 for that equation to hold.
Eish. Never even heard of that shit before... but ja, for argument let's stick to normal sum... Except I haven't defined normal Tongue

Quote:
(08-03-2015 01:37 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You were trying to give the false impression that the order in which you add all the numbers together matters and it still doesn't.

And yet, despite your objection, it does indeed matter. The Riemann Rearrangement Theorem states that by a suitable rearrangement of terms, a conditionally convergent series may be made to converge to any desired value, or to diverge.
Well yeah, that theorem illustrates that order matters, but the series in question as far as I can tell is not conditionally convergent...

Rahn, the trick is that sums of infinite sequences of numbers behave a bit differently to normal sums of *finite* numbers of terms.

For example

(1 + -1) + (1 + -1) + ... = 0 + 0 +... = 0 right?

But

1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + ... = 1 + 0 + 0 + ... = 1 ?

You can argue that I added an extra 1 at the start there but *actually* all I did was change the order in which I did the addition.

In actual fact it's still a trick, because really we need to define a sum of an infinite sequence of numbers more rigourously than that, but the example does serve to illustrate that something's up and we can't just naively add things together.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-03-2015, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 03:12 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  (1 + -1) + (1 + -1) + ... = 0 + 0 +... = 0 right?

But

1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + ... = 1 + 0 + 0 + ... = 1 ?

There can be only 2 logical conclusions canis idiotis. Either the sum does not exist or if it does exist it is equal to 1/2 or it is both. Big Grin

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08-03-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  ...
Eish. Never even heard of that shit before...
...

Even I knew that one...




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08-03-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(08-03-2015 03:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  (1 + -1) + (1 + -1) + ... = 0 + 0 +... = 0 right?

But

1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + ... = 1 + 0 + 0 + ... = 1 ?

There can be only 2 logical conclusions canis idiotis. Either the sum does not exist or if it does exist it is equal to 1/2 or it is both. Big Grin

Now you see, I was just being an ass initially, but I've learned something new myself Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-03-2015, 01:40 AM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(07-03-2015 01:38 PM)Transfinite Wrote:  Greetings! This is my first thread and I hope it isn't too silly! If we live in a multiverse as some cosmologists claim, is it possible there may be other universes with a different configeration that allows for the evolution of beings that are far superior to us in ability?
There are many beings that are far superior to us in ability within our observable universe.
Most animals are quicker than us, many are stronger, many are much better swimmers, many can swim better, can see better, some have better memories than us. Human's are really quite feeble in many ways.

Given the size of our observable universe and the age of it, it seems quite conceivable that there are many, many life forms that are or have been more intelligent than us. Sometimes I am quite embarrassed to be a human when I see how stupid we are as a species.
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09-03-2015, 01:42 AM
RE: Atheistic and Theistic Universes
(09-03-2015 01:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Sometimes I am quite embarrassed to be a human when I see how stupid we are as a species.

And even that is only considering how stupid we appear to be by our own standards, let alone from the standards of a potentially more intelligent species.

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