Atheistic arguments
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30-05-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: Atheistic arguments
(30-05-2015 08:25 PM)hddd12345678910 Wrote:  Like I said, I was just curious what you all thought about this, so there's that.

Come now. You are trolling for "atheist vitriol", and you have been from the start. You got it, now you can see your way out, unless you have anything interesting to say.

Peace be upon you. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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30-05-2015, 09:00 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2015 08:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheistic arguments
(30-05-2015 08:25 PM)hddd12345678910 Wrote:  With all this talk about strawmen this and strawmen that, someone of you had some trouble sticking to the topic. Did I make any positive assertions about the existence of God in my OP? That's just not what I do, I don't go to online forums and try and convince people that God exists. Meet me in person and I might just conjure up the energy for it.

If anyone's that interested in what other evidence I'm referring to, feel free to search "ourbeacon qxp" on google at your own convenience. Like I said, I was just curious what you all thought about this, so there's that.

Hahaha.

You really are a dishonest one. YOU came here, made up all sorts of nonsense, then said YOU think the logical evidence leads to a god, and NOW you attempt to retreat as you are unable to answer the objections to your nonsense. There is no evidence for any god in Islam or the Quran. That cult is even worse than the others. In fact, there is no evidence that Muhammad was real. No one has been able to respond to Robert Spencer's questions, about his real existence.

So no, "there's NOT that". You didn't come here and ask questions about atheist "arguments". You didn't come here and ask questions. YOU came here and made assertions. Either you are mentally ill, memory deficient, or just a damn liar.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-05-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: Atheistic arguments
(29-05-2015 02:18 PM)hddd12345678910 Wrote:  Hey folks, here are a few atheistic arguments and my thoughts on them. While the basis for these arguments is often not so absolutely worded as their religious counterparts, I find that the end result is often the same:

First off, modern atheism is fundamentally flawed from the get-go because it attempts to deal in existential claims i.e. God does not exist, universe came to exist from nothing, etc. This is flawed because atheism bases its reasoning upon science, and science fundamentally prohibits itself from making existential claims. And that's because science supports theories through natural evidence, and natural evidence can only ever exist. If it didn't exist, it wouldn't be natural evidence. Hence there can by definition never be evidence of non-existence. This, of course, is really just a restatement of a common atheistic argument to the effect of "asking me to disprove God is like asking me to disprove the unicorn in my backyard". And it is, in fact, not a limitation of science, but a feature.

Claim: Science supports the idea that the universe came from nothing because random quantum fluctuations in empty space, a.k.a. nothing, allow the creation of an entire universe.
Problem #1: There are so many problems with this I don't know where to start. But certainly the one that stands out is that science has theories about the structure of empty space! In the history of human intellectual endeavors, if a hint of structure were found, what could cause us to call it "nothing"? In fact, science already has a term for this infamous nothing: quantum foam. In other words, a very much something. There is a tremendous game of semantics required to be able to peddle this idea that the universe came from nothing.
Problem #2: This is not a conclusion of any scientific experiment, but an interpretation of maths that don't directly imply anything of the sort. This isn't really a problem for most scientists of course, it's only when these claims are pushed as though they are based on mainstream scientific theories when it gets ridiculous.
Problem #3: Again, a scientific theory, by the very application of the scientific method, can never support the claim that something came from nothing.

Claim: You can't ask us to prove that God doesn't exist because those making the exceptional claim (that God does exist) have the burden of proof.
Problem: This is absolutely true. Only one problem: since when do atheists, who are in the minority, get to decide what the exceptional claim is? Even if they were in the majority, it is still a completely subjective judgment call, as it would be in any other domain of human thought. An atheist can have their perspective, and I will have mine.

Claim: You can't ask us to prove that God doesn't exist because that's like asking us to prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
Problem: Every normal human comes to learn and understand first hand as they grow to adulthood, by intuition of natural laws and tangible experience, that in fact the tooth fairy, goblins, Santa Clause, the spaghetti monster, and unicorns are stories created by other human adults. But no human has firsthand experience or knowledge about where the universe has come from, how it was created, and what happens after we die. So barring blind faith, a natural reaction by sensible humans is that it was created by some higher being; by God. So no, the two are nothing alike.

Claim: You can't ask us to prove that God doesn't exist because by your own argument, science can't prove non-existence.
Problem: Well actually, by itself, I have no problem with this. It's the other claims that I've got beef with.

Claim: The anthropic principle solves the problem of fine-tuning and is further supported by the multiverse theory which in turn is supported by the idea that an infinite number of random quantum fluctuations in "empty" space can bring about an infinite number of universes in which one of them happens to coincidentally have all the right variables for humanity to exist and for me to be typing away on my computer wondering about the perfection of the universe.
Problem #1: A major, striking problem with this is that...this is not an existential theory at all. It in no way, shape, or form explains how things came to exist since the "nothing" of empty space, isn't in fact nothing as mentioned above. All it ends up accomplishing is imagining up galactic machinery, a lot of which is basically handwaving, that explains how we got here without bothering to explain where the machinery itself came from.
Problem #2-4: All the other problems already mentioned about quantum fluctuations.

Claim: The idea of a Creator, Designer God is silly since it would have to be infinitely complex, and so we will apply Occam's razor.
Problem #1: And somehow an infinite number of universes being created from empty space, a.k.a. quantum foam, a.k.a. nothing, is a simpler theory?
Problem #2: Many argue that regardless of whether it's a simpler theory or not, it at least has the support of scientific evidence to support it. This is patently false because, once again, science can't make existential claims so it can't support the idea that a universe, not to speak of an infinite number of them, came from nothing.

Just curious what you all think.


For me, it's not complicated. I have no belief in the existence of god(s). End of story.

Why do you people try to make it more complicated? You projecting all your own complex belief systems on to others?

First off, I didn't sign up to be part of the world atheist population or any such thing. No paperwork at all, not even a click of the mouse.. I didn't make any pledges or swear allegiance to anything. I don't defer to any creed. I don't recite any mantras. I don't subscribe to any statements of faith.

I lack belief in god(s). It's as simple as that. Not complicated at all. Once you get that through your head, things will be much better. Thumbsup
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31-05-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Atheistic arguments
Quote:And then there are these posters writing sob stories about how I've dehumanized atheists in my OP. The hypocrisy is a bit overwhelming here.

Why are you posting on this site? You were not invited.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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31-05-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: Atheistic arguments
(30-05-2015 08:25 PM)hddd12345678910 Wrote:  With all this talk about strawmen this and strawmen that, someone of you had some trouble sticking to the topic.

The OP was a set of arguments against science claims presented as problems involved in accepting atheism. It was a litany of strawmen making that the real topic of this thread. We stuck to the topic; you just kept whining that we didn't respond the way you wanted us to.

Quote:Did I make any positive assertions about the existence of God in my OP? That's just not what I do, I don't go to online forums and try and convince people that God exists.

That is just dishonest. You attempted, badly, to argue that atheism is based on faulty claims and claimed:
Quote:So barring blind faith, a natural reaction by sensible humans is that it was created by some higher being; by God.

If you don't think you were arguing that god exists then you are even more deluded than I think you are.

Quote:Meet me in person and I might just conjure up the energy for it.

If you were honest in your convictions you would be doing that here.

Quote:If anyone's that interested in what other evidence I'm referring to, feel free to search "ourbeacon qxp" on google at your own convenience.

Ah, so you're an Islamic troll. The claims of Islam are at least as laughable as Christianity. It'd be interesting to hear those apologetics though as they are less common here than the Christian ones. It's almost too bad that you are so unable to defend your faith.

Quote:Like I said, I was just curious what you all thought about this, so there's that.

I don't believe you were curious about anything, I think you thought you had great arguments against atheism and found out you have nothing of the sort. As has been said already, you don't disprove atheism by disproving unrelated scientific claims, you disprove atheism by proving theism.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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31-05-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Atheistic arguments
(30-05-2015 10:07 AM)hddd12345678910 Wrote:  And then there are these posters writing sob stories about how I've dehumanized atheists in my OP. The hypocrisy is a bit overwhelming here.

You appear to be reading what you want to read instead of what is actually written. Kind of like when you read your Quran I guess.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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31-05-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Atheistic arguments
An Islamic troll. Why is this troll not beheading non believers???

Is not that what they do best?

Attractive belief system that. For the uncivilised at least.

I note none of my requests for proof have been answered. Pathetic!

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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31-05-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Atheistic arguments
Only 3 days into the trolling and I sense weakness already. Come on now, I predicted a week worth of trolling. My prophecy must come true.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-05-2015, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2015 09:26 AM by natachan.)
RE: Atheistic arguments
Ha!

You did make a positive claim about god in your OP. You claimed that the most logical conclusion for a rational person to come to was god.

And yes, you strawmanned atheism by clumping things in with it. Then when you have been corrected, repeatedly, and asked to back up the assertion of your OP you whine that it isn't what you meant.

You STILL haven't defined your god or provided any evidence. I might google this once I get at my laptop, but it's somewhat difficult on my phone. But was you won't do it here I call you a dishonest coward.

*Edit: so a quick note. The first google result I pulled up was less than promising. I am still reading (still no definition or evidence, surprise surprise), but the phrase "the Qu'ran explains itself" jumped out a at me. The wording that you have to read the Quran and it will explain itself. I've read a few books in my time, and the only non-religious book that claims that is in the foreword of a work of fiction. The novelist explained she believed a story was self contained and would explain itself. No non-fiction book has ever claimed it can't be verified by outside means. No textbook has claimed it. Only in fiction and religious texts have I seen this. This is damning circular reasoning.
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