Atheists, Agnostics and many more
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10-08-2010, 09:46 AM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Hello, Im back från Sweden.Cool

Quote:3. Agnostic but thinks existence of God cannot be proven, it is more likely non-probable and lives his/her life without considering the idea of God.
This one of course. Gods existance is not impossible, but indcredibly super hyper improbable, just like the existance of an invisible green giant holding the galaxies in their places.
Quote:"well, I don't believe but who am I to question someone's faith?"
I wonder would they say to that to a pastafarian(if there are any real ones) or to someone who believes that children have particles called marlocks in their bodies, and when an adult has sex with the child, the marlocks implode, feeding the adult receptive cavity with energy that causes immortality, so sayeth the ruler of Bethos... I mean, those base on faith too, but only the first one has holy books.Undecided

Correct me when I'm wrong.
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14-08-2010, 04:28 PM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Hey, Madblood.

Thanks for dropping the Turkey knowledge.

Hey, the Sixth Glass.

Quote:I think you're both right. The fence-sitters are not the most immediately dangerous - they rarely (if ever) pose much of an actual threat to anyone. But as BnW stated, they are often less likely to criticize religion when it is deserved, or more likely to just ignore the evils of religion because it does some good. They're enablers.

I'm glad to know I'm not a threat Big Grin I'm a cultural relativist so I don't think it's for me to change any society; secular ones included. I know that drives objectivists insane but hey, I am what I am. But I'd like to think that I'm more than just an enabler. I mean, in the sense that I'm not traveling the world evangelising and forcing people I disagree with to change, then sure, I'm an enabler. But if that's the description of an enabler then I'm cool with that.

And for the record, I'm not a so-called fence sitter because I just can't quite seem to make up my mind. I made a deliberate choice. Some might call it fence-sitting, I call it being an agnostic. I don't want to play on either of your teams.

Quote:The fence-sitters might not be dangerous individually, but fence-sitting does pose dangers, in my experience.

Is that in a 'you're either with us or you're against us' kind of way?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-08-2010, 08:26 AM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
(14-08-2010 04:28 PM)Ghost Wrote:  And for the record, I'm not a so-called fence sitter because I just can't quite seem to make up my mind. I made a deliberate choice. Some might call it fence-sitting, I call it being an agnostic. I don't want to play on either of your teams.

That's not how it works. It doesn't go:

atheism---->agnosticism---->theism

There are two separate tracks. Well, not really. Binary values, more like, since if you don't believe one you, by definition, believe the other. They are:

atheism<---->theism
agnosticism<---->gnosticism

Atheism is a lack of belief in God. It does not, repeat, does not, mean that you actively believe that God does not exist (many atheists, myself included, do believe this, but that is not the definition of atheism). Theism is the opposite - having belief in God. You either believe or you don't. If your amount of belief is greater than zero, you are a theist. If it is zero, you are an atheist.

Agnosticism is the belief that the truth about some matter can never be known. For example, we can never know if we are living in the Matrix, so most people are agnostic when it comes to the Matrix. However, they also do not believe that the Matrix exists (unless they're crazy). They are agnostic a-Matrixists.

Most people on this site are agnostic atheists (there may be a gnostic atheist - one who believes that you can prove God's non-existence - but if there is, they're being pretty quiet about it). You are too. You don't hold belief in a god (you yourself said it perfectly - you don't play for either team), so you are an atheist. You believe that we cannot know the truth, so you are an agnostic.

You're an agnostic atheist.

Now, before you get offended, keep in mind that, like in the other thread, I am not saying that what you are saying is wrong. You are entirely at liberty, as an agnostic atheist, to "play for neither team". You don't currently hold belief in a god, but you don't deny his existence, either.
I'm not trying to change what you say you are. It's just that I took a few philosophy classes, and it peeves me when people misuse the terms "atheist", "theist" and "agnostic".

What you describe yourself as is, to the letter, the definition of agnostic atheist. It doesn't change anything about you. It's just a matter of vocabulary.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2010, 04:16 PM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Hey, Unbeliever.

I'm not offended. I just disagree. The people who should be taking offense are the people who called us agnostics fence sitters. They're the ones breaking your proposed model.

I am not an atheist. Period. Sorry, but you can't claim me as one of your own.

I am not a theist. Period.

Also, I never told you what my relationship with God is. You assumed. You know what that does.

Some might call me a strong Agnostic but I have never been one to care much for affiliation with any group. But if I claim that I believe something, it's my claim to make, no one else's. If you feel you don't understand my position, feel free to ask me so I can help you understand, but don't tell me what it is.

I am not a fence sitter. I'm not just waiting around to figure out which way the wind is blowing so I can finally make my decision cause I just can't seem to do it on my own. I have already made my decision. I'm quite comfortable with it.

I am an agnostic. Deal.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-08-2010, 05:11 PM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Noones trying to "claim you as one of their own". If you are not a theist, you're an atheist. Putting an "a" in front of theist makes the definition "not theist". Thats elglish. It's not a label. Atheists are not a group. They are simply people who are not theists. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record)

This is like picking up a hammer and saying, "this is a screwdriver." It's not. No matter how bad you want it to be a screwdriver, it's still a hammer. "Well, I call it a screwdriver, so let's just agree to disagree. To ME it's a screwdriver and to you it's a hammer." That doesn't change what a hammer is. You just don't get to redefine a word because you don't like how the word makes you feel.

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18-08-2010, 05:17 PM
 
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
(22-01-1974 08:07 PM)Madblood
I suggest your definition of "full atheist" needs some clarification. There are two types of "Full Atheists:" The negative [full' Wrote:  
atheist says, "I do not believe in a god (or that god exists)." The positive [full] atheist says, "I believe there is no god (or that no god exists)." However, neither one proclaims "I know there is no god." The difference between the two is negligible but rather it is an attitude of "Is the glass half full or half empty?" Not my idea, by the way, but comes from the past president of The Atheist Alliance.


We all know Non-beleving is devided into many sections like.

1. Full Agnostic
2. Agnostic but tends not to believe in God
3. Agnostic but thinks existence of God cannot be proven, it is more likely non-probable and lives his/her life without considering the idea of God.
4. Full Atheist (I know there is no God)

And i wonder where you stand at? Which one would you prefer?
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18-08-2010, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2010 07:45 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Hey, Stark Raving.

Quote:If you are not a theist, you're an atheist

Again, I disagree. It do not believe that it is a dichotomy.

I believe neither in the existence nor in the non-existence of God. So I am neither atheist nor theist neither am I a fence-sitter.

Like I said, I'm not one to bother with affiliation but this resonates with me.

Quote:Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out." ...

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.[15]

Agnostic theism
The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
-SOURCE

I do not know. Therefore I am an Agnostic.

I do not believe that deities do not exist. Therefore I am not an Agnostic Atheist.

I do not believe that deities do exist. Therefore I am not an Agnostic Theist.

I do not believe that one day we will figure out a way to prove or disprove the existence of any deity. Therefore I am not a Weak Agnostic.

I believe that, due to the structure of the human mind, due to the way that we sense and process signals from the external world, because human consciousness uses a series of abstractions and assigned meanings and not direct experience with actuality and because the supernatural, by definition, is beyond the ability of science to prove or disprove, we will never know one way or the other because as a species we do not have the capacity to know any truth objectively (which is irrelevant anyway because reality as we know and interact with it is a social construction that exists solely in our minds); therefore, neither I nor any of us will ever know. Therefore I am a Strong Agnostic.

I believe that proving or disproving the existence of deities is not only impossible but irrelevant. What is relevant is that cultures believe or disbelieve and that those beliefs affect their actions.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-08-2010, 10:00 PM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Quote:I do not know. Therefore I am an Agnostic.

I'm a Druid, reformed.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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19-08-2010, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2010 01:00 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
(18-08-2010 04:16 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I am not an atheist. Period. Sorry, but you can't claim me as one of your own.

I'm not. Like I said, your description of yourself is exactly the definition of agnostic atheist. Case in point:

Quote:I am not a theist. Period.

You are not a theist. "Not theist" is "atheist". "A-theist" is "not theist".

Quote:Also, I never told you what my relationship with God is. You assumed. You know what that does.

And you lied. You know what that does.

You have told us all exactly what your relationship with God is. You do not believe in him. Neither do you say that he does not exist.

I have assumed nothing. I have used only your own description of yourself.

Quote:If you feel you don't understand my position, feel free to ask me so I can help you understand, but don't tell me what it is.

I'm not. As I made perfectly plain in my last post, being an agnostic atheist does not change what you believe in any way. It's simply a matter of vocabulary. I'm a stickler for proper word usage, especially in the area of philosophy, as the area is already confusing enough without everyone misusing terms.

Quote:I am not a fence sitter.

I never said you were.

Quote:I'm not just waiting around to figure out which way the wind is blowing so I can finally make my decision cause I just can't seem to do it on my own. I have already made my decision. I'm quite comfortable with it.

I am an agnostic. Deal.

I'm dealing just fine, thank you. You just don't seem to understand what it is that your position is actually called.
Your decision is that you do not actively espouse the idea of a deity (which makes you atheist), but also do not reject the idea on the basis that you can't prove that he doesn't exist (which makes you agnostic).

This isn't something which can be disputed, unless you think that I have mis-evaluated your position. If I have, please let me know.

For future reference, there are four possible categories of belief.

Theists are those who actively espouse the idea of a deity's existence.

Atheists are those who are not theists.

Gnostics are those who believe that their position can be proven - that God's existence can be proven or disproven.

Agnostics are those who are not gnostic.

This leads us to the four possible categories: gnostic theists, agnostic theists, gnostic atheists, and agnostic atheists. Like it or not, you are a member of one of these categories. I was simply explaining which category you fell into according to what you have stated your position to be in other threads.
(18-08-2010 07:42 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:If you are not a theist, you're an atheist

Again, I disagree. It do not believe that it is a dichotomy.

Then you are ignoring the definitions of the words. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Quote:I believe neither in the existence nor in the non-existence of God. So I am neither atheist nor theist neither am I a fence-sitter.

The problem here is that you are constructing a straw-man definition of "atheist". An atheist is one who does not hold belief in a god. It does not, repeat, not mean one who actively disbelieves in gods. Many atheists do, but that is not the definition of atheist.

Again, by definition, anyone who is not theist is atheist.

Quote:Like I said, I'm not one to bother with affiliation but this resonates with me.

[quote]Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.[15]

Exactly. That is what you are. This is exactly what you have described your position to be. You are atheist because you do not have belief in the existence of any deity. You are agnostic because you do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. This is exactly what you said your position was earlier in this post.

Quote:I do not know. Therefore I am an Agnostic.

And you do not believe. Therefore you are an atheist. It's simple.

Quote:I do not believe that deities do not exist. Therefore I am not an Agnostic Atheist.

I really don't understand how you can say this with a straight face after posting the information which shows you wrong earlier in your own post. The definition of "agnostic atheist" is "one who does not believe in deities, and does not believe that the non-existence of said deities can be proven".

I'll say it again. "Atheist" does not mean that you believe that no gods exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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19-08-2010, 01:12 PM
RE: Atheists, Agnostics and many more
Quote:Then you are ignoring the definitions of the words. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Once you start ignoring history, ignoring definitions is easy.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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