Atheists And The Moon
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03-05-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Atheists say, "How many scientists believe in God?" Yet these men were scientists.

Different era, different cultural climate. I'm curious what the social repercussions of being an outspoken atheist at that time were. Regardless, they didn't pray their way to the moon. I could care less if they were religious or not.

(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Nothing will be left of all the proud structures that man has built.

How is that different than your god's plan? I think theists and atheist alike can agree the Earth is going to end. Who's going to care about what you did on Earth after a few million years in heaven or hell?

(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  So you have to ask the atheist: "Richard Dawkins, why do you work so hard? Why do you write so many books? They're all going to be burned up. Why do you struggle to stay alive a little longer so that you can pen a few more words to the glory of the molecules?"

To contribute to humanity. To give knowledge and insight. To contribute more to the human race than a god ever has.

(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  To the living he says, in effect, "But you made it in the lottery! And here you are. Your genes brought you here."

It is absolutely a lottery. You're lucky to be the fastest 'swimmer.' You're lucky to be born without issues. Not sure what his point is.

(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "I've got the wood, father!" So he wasn't a little tiny kid.

Ah, Christian spin. Human sacrifice is all good as long as the victim isn't 'tiny.' I could easily lug 40 pounds of wood when I was 14. I suppose that's an acceptable age to be sacrificed?

(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We don't want to forget God the Father, who gave His Son, and Christ, who suffered for our sins--they went both together.

He didn't 'give' his son. He took him back upstairs when it was all over.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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03-05-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
What's the fucking point of the OP? So much disconnected drivel......
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03-05-2013, 10:28 AM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2013 11:04 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Atheists And The Moon
Okay, time to give this the well-reasoned response it does not deserve. I break this down into the following arguments, sequenced and perhaps related by theme but not otherwise-cohesive:

1: Noting that the Apollo astronauts were religious, as a counter to claims that scientists are fairly irreligious.
2: Characterizing an atheist world-view as ultimately hopeless because it offers nothing eternal.
3: Biblical stuff about Abraham almost sacrificing his son and comparison of this to Jesus.

In reverse order of the ones that actually merit a response:

3: Reference to Biblical story. Yes, I can see this speck of beauty that you (sorry, Hunt) is referring to, the sense of mercy and closure and justice in what would otherwise be a tremendously unjust scenario. It's a very well-worded line. But Hunt (at least, as quoted) offers no argument, no shred of evidence, that it is anything more. There is no effort at all to actually comprehend the mindset which doesn't believe it's true, no effort to speak to that mindset, no attempt to guide it through a change, for how can he serve as a guide when he can't show a path from the starting point? It's preaching to the choir, and those of us not in the choir know that it is not addressed to us. And if he's not addressing us, we hardly need to respond.

1: FYI, the astronauts were more pilots than scientists. If you want scientists, look at the people who were in Mission Control or the various other support roles. But that's not the point. The point is a mix of, "Oh, hey, we found a couple of scientists who DO believe" and "Oh, hey, a couple of scientists believed in PAST generations, when funded by a US government for a public even more inclined to persecute than the present day's" and "Through some alchemy that we're not bothering to express, these two datapoints somehow undermine the statistically valid surveys showing vast swaths of present-day scientists not believing." Which is, IMO, both bogus. (2 datapoints of believing "scientists" would not undermine a statistical survey that puts the number of believing scientists at.... what is it, 3%? 10% What's the present figure? Depends on the definition of what they're supposed to believe in, maybe?... but would rather be completely consistent with such findings.) It's also irrelevant. The virtue of scientists is that they open their findings, logic, and conclusions to the scrutiny and criticism of others and will modify their conclusions if peer review finds holes in their work. THAT is where the correctness of science ultimately derives from, and where a scientist does not actually put forth the basis for a belief for review (as most believing scientists do not in regards to their faith), they are not acting as scientists and their conclusions do not carry the reliability of a scientific finding. Which is fine, they don't need to be on the clock 24-7. But it smacks too much of this.

2: I went looking for the original Sam Harris quote, thinking it might have been taken out of context, and I couldn't find it. What I DID find was a fragmented Edward Harrison quote: "The stars begin to fade like guttering candles and are snuffed out one by one. Out in the depths of space the great celestial cities, the galaxies cluttered with the memorabilia of ages, are gradually dying. Tens of billions of years pass in the growing darkness ... of a universe condemned to become a galactic graveyard." This is an astronomer discussing astronomical findings that the hydrogen in the universe is getting used up and that the second law of thermodynamics is slowly but surely rearing its head. Maybe Harris referenced him at some point, but if so I can't find it. The fact that "Sam Harris" and "Galactic Graveyard" together produce this very thread as the top result on Google isn't promising. Please point out the Harris quotation if you know where it lives. But to whomever we might attribute the quotation, the point is made: In a strictly materialist view of the universe, at least as presently understood by empirical science, will eventually wind down and be claimed by entropy.

I don't recall that either Dawkins or Russel said "I want you to hate God". I'm guessing that's meant as a characterization, rather than a quote. And I think we can leave aside as patently false the characterization of atheists hating God when their defining characteristic is not believing God exists. That horse is dead, no need to beat it further.

But the ultimate point, and the only thing in the entire damn post worth even a momentary response to, is that the proponents of atheism are offering some sort of eternal hope or legacy, when an empirical view of the universe is that none exist. Which is false, because that isn't being offered. Our existence (at least, our observable existence) is finite. Whatever motivation and hope we might need to get through a finite life does not need to be infinite. Frankly, most times five minutes of motivation will work. "Hey, that snatch of music in that ad was interesting, let me track down where it came from" can motivate us for half an hour easily. Raising a child can motivate us for decades. Yes, their life (and ours) will eventually burn out, and everything will crumble to dust, but the momentary results are sufficient to maintain us (and even satisfy and delight us) through our own moment. Science and technology can offer an extended life to be enjoyed, but has not yet produced any sign of eternal life. (So far as I can tell, the only difference on the subject with Christianity is that Christianity advances the claim, but also can't show results.) It can offer a happier existence within the span of life, but cannot make that life permanent. Sure, the hope is finite, but so is the life it needs to fill.

... and how is this a problem? Why should each and every one of us expect, demand, or require that we leave a permanent mark or exist forever? I don't care if no one remembers me a billion years from now, or a million, or a thousand. Nor will I be around to care then. I figure I'll be doing pretty good if people remember me 50 years after I'm dead. And you know what? That's good enough for me. If it isn't good enough for Hunt, that's his damage, not mine. I guess the lack of an eternal existence looks different through the eyes of someone brought up to expect eternal existence.

I'll leave aside the Dawkins quote, including the summarized portions. It's actually represented pretty accurately, and doesn't strike me as condemning an atheist world view. Maybe it looks different from the other side of the fence.

EDIT: Forgot my conclusion. Bottom line, yes, it's drivel. There's one or two specks of an argument in there, but nothing that comes together coherently and nothing that can't be dismissed rapidly. (Okay, I didn't do this, but that's because I'm long-winded.) It speaks more to the qualities of the person who wrote it, and the person who posted it on a board full of atheists, than any of the qualities of atheists or atheism. Really, really, really not worth my time, or anyone else's. Except that I'm bored, and it offered some brief entertainment value.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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03-05-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
I don't care if no one remembers me, like, now. Big Grin

"Please Jesus" sounds like some kinda sexual moan.

And the point of this thread is for my fellow atheists to rag on it so I can hand out some likes. Thumbsup

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03-05-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon



The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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03-05-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
(03-05-2013 09:36 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "I've got the wood, father!" So he wasn't a little tiny kid.

Ah, Christian spin. Human sacrifice is all good as long as the victim isn't 'tiny.' I could easily lug 40 pounds of wood when I was 14. I suppose that's an acceptable age to be sacrificed?

Well, in Chile its as early as 3 days.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-05-2013, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 08:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheists And The Moon
Thanks for the perfect example of a series of non-sequitur anecdotal paragraphs. My sister teaches a Logic course to high school sophomores, and she's always on the lookout for examples of crappy logical nonsense. I'll send this piece of shit to her. The fact that many years ago, some of the astronauts *said* they were believers, is irrelevant. Have a nice weekend, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Tongue
(Stop wasting your congregation's salary money here. No one has, and no one will, take such an idiot seriously). I hope this is not an example of what your sermons are like. I do like a finely crafted sermon. I was lucky enough to grow up in a church where the pastor was one of the finest speakers in the country. (He's an atheist now). They were works of quality and literary masterpieces. Your's are crap. Big Grin

When I have time, I'll start a thread, "Fundie believers and Uranus".

BTW, just because YOU need to have a fairy tale happy ending, that you perceive to be a nice "hopeful" ending, (just like Santy or the Easter Bunny), does not entitle you to make up a fiction, so you have a nice happy children's tale. Grow up, and face reality. You're going to die. Your Jebus is dead. Every organism has a limited life span. You are no different. You making up a pleasant fiction about yourself is not going to change that. Stop deluding yourself. No one has ever risen from the dead, (including your Jebus).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-05-2013, 11:07 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
(03-05-2013 10:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I don't care if no one remembers me, like, now. Big Grin

"Please Jesus" sounds like some kinda sexual moan.

And the point of this thread is for my fellow atheists to rag on it so I can hand out some likes. Thumbsup

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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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03-05-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
(03-05-2013 07:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The first Apollo astronauts to circle the moon sent a message back to planet Earth: "We've got a message for you." And they read the first 10 verses of Genesis: "In the beginning, God created...." Do you remember the first food and drink that was consumed on the moon? It was the bread and wine of communion! Atheists say, "How many scientists believe in God?" Yet these men were scientists.

Listen to the hopelessness of atheist Sam Harris: "Tens of billions of viewers passed in the growing darkness of a universe condemned to become a galactic graveyard." That's what they have to look forward to. That epitaph is pronounced in advance upon everything that Bertrand Russell wrote, everything that Dawkins ever did or wrote, so why do they insist, "I want to convert you to atheism! I want you to hate God. And I want you to have this beautiful future lying ahead of you. What a hope we give you!" Expending such a great effort to extend their life, merely to stave off death a short while longer in order to leave some meaningless record of one's having been there. But there's no record. Nothing will be left of all the proud structures that man has built.

So you have to ask the atheist: "Richard Dawkins, why do you work so hard? Why do you write so many books? They're all going to be burned up. Why do you struggle to stay alive a little longer so that you can pen a few more words to the glory of the molecules?"

Richard Dawkins writes: "We are staggeringly lucky. However brief our time in the sun, if we waste a second of it, or complain, couldn't this be seen as a callous insult to those unborn trillions who will never be offered life in the first place?" He is speaking of those who apparently didn't get into the right space in the gene pool, and they were sloughed off. To the living he says, in effect, "But you made it in the lottery! And here you are. Your genes brought you here." He also says, "The knowledge that we have only one life should make it all the more precious. The atheist view is life-affirming and life-enhancing."

God calls Abraham: "I want you to kill your only son, the son you love." What a picture of Christ: "The Father sent the Son..." The Father gave His Son to be the Savior of the world. In Genesis, Isaac says, "I've got the wood, father!" So he wasn't a little tiny kid. He was carrying the wood for the fire, as Jesus carried the cross. "Here's the wood, you've got the fire. Where's the lamb?"

Abraham replied, "God will provide himself a lamb."

I love that verse: "So they went both of them together." Abraham and his son. It was a joint operation. We don't want to forget God the Father, who gave His Son, and Christ, who suffered for our sins--they went both together.

--
Excerpted from a message by apologist Dave Hunt

Well, since we're going on a quoting spree I'd like to join Wink

...a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
- No. 44, The Mysterious Stranger, Mark Twain

For those who have never read this book, Twain writes it from the point of view of one of Satan's nephew visiting the Earth and reporting back to his uncle. The book is well worth your time, the above caption is just a sample of Twain's brilliance. FC

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9028

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-05-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: Atheists And The Moon
...what just happened? I read the first line, stopped, went ahead and read the comments, then wanted to go back to make sure I didn't miss anything... biggest mistake of my day, rest in peace those two poor minutes of my life.

Go read Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" and intelligently humble yourself. No sense in reasoning with this dribble. (just realized... you can't spell drIBBLE with out bible! close enough anyways).
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