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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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23-04-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 08:58 AM)War Horse Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 08:50 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  So, how do you feel about restrictions on firearms?

Wont do any good, as only law abiding people will be restricted. Criminals will not care one way or the other.

yep.
criminals won't follow the law...that's what makes them criminals. Dodgy

there are ways we can improve our system......in many areas, not just guns, and then politics comes in and it becomes a cluster fuck. Confused

so we have what we have. In my day to day life- suburb mom--schools, shopping centers, neighborhoods I don't ever *think* about guns, no one talks about them, I don't see one (unless my daughters one friend, her Dad is a police officer- comes to school in uniform- he usually doesn't) or someone just went to/came back from military service. When I go home to visit PA, its a farm/rural setting on the outskirts of suburbia, I hear about guns in terms of hunting--but also hear about fishing, archery, bait, spotting, etc). I avoid the scary side of town -- every town has one-- and there isn't a problem.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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23-04-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 08:50 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 08:32 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  That is an incredibly broad topic and kind of a loaded question. Using the term "obsession" is disingenuous. We are not obsessed with guns, it only seems that way due to media coverage and our movies. We enjoy guns, gun rights, and shooting sports. We don't cuddle our AR15s at night or lovingly kiss them goodnight. They are, at best, a secondary or tertiary aspect of most American's lives. Aside from those who make a living with guns (i.e. professional competitive shooters), most American gun owners' lives do not revolve around guns.

The apostrophes around "'gun obsession'" were supposed to indicate a form of sarcasm...

(23-04-2014 08:32 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Now, on the topic of our fondness of guns.

Guns are tools. No more, no less. For me, they are a tool for sport, recreation, and self defense. This is true of many americans to varying degrees. The vast, overwhelming use of guns in this country is at a shooting range. It is a fantastic stress relief and a fun way to compete with people.

Outside of sport shooting, self defense is the second most common use of guns in america. More people defend themselves every year with guns than are assaulted with guns. By a very large margin. The lowest estimates of defensive gun use in this country is around 800,000 annually. The amount of violent crimes committed with a gun was half that amount.

For me, it boils down to this. I am 5'4" 160lbs. I am not a match for even a single other male of average size in a fight, let alone the three men that cornered me by my car. Carrying a gun does wonders for shifting the balance of power in a situation like that. Had I not been armed, those three men could have easily overpowered me, beat me, and stolen everything I had. The simple fact that I was armed was enough to send three large men running from me. That simply would not have happened if I was unarmed.

It's like a seatbelt. Every time I get in my car, I put my seatbelt on just in case the incredibly rare occasion happens where I am in an accident. I don't intend on getting in an accident because I put my seatbelt on, I am simply ensuring that I am protected in the unlikely event that a collision occurs. The same goes for my gun. When I leave the house, I have it with me. Not because I'm looking for trouble or I think I might get into trouble. I have it there for the unlikely event that someone tries to mug me or carjack me.

I understand the self defence, though I do wonder how it gets to the point where that's a concern...

So, how do you feel about restrictions on firearms?

Sorry, sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet. Especially when discussing a topic like guns. People, myself included, tend to take the topic very seriously.


How does the need for self defense get to a point where one feels it is necessary to arm themselves? Simply by living in an area where there are people. A certain percentage of people are going to be criminals in modern society. The causes of which are a topic for another discussion. Those criminals need victims in order to be successful criminals. I refuse to allow myself to become one of those victims. As I've already stated, I almost was a victim of a mugging. Prior to that, a close family friend of mine was mugged, beaten, and killed. All in a neighborhood that has a very low crime rate. Crime does happen, and it can happen to anyone. Until we come up with a law enforcement solution that nets zero crime (or at least zero violent crime), I will feel it necessary to take the defense of my life seriously, and therefore carry a gun. Police can not be counted on to prevent crimes from happening. Our very own supreme court has ruled that they actually have no duty to protect you from crime. Their only duty is to report and investigate crime. But by that time, the crime has already been committed and there is already a victim.

On gun restrictions, I am for some of them and against many of them. As most americans are.

Background checks: Thumbsup However, some of the restrictions should be changed. Violent felons should never be allowed to own guns. They have already proven to society that they are violent individuals and by doing so have given up their right to own such a powerful tool. That being said, I don't think that ALL felons should lose their gun rights. There are over 64,0000 ways to commit a felony in America. Most of them are non-violent. These are things like fraud, perjury, or smoking a joint. These are not violent people and should not be denied the right to own guns.

Restrictions on what you can buy:

This is a mixed bag for me. I don't think that any type of conventional firearm should be disallowed. Even fully automatic weapons. Full autos are completely legal to own in the USA, all it requires is a clean background and a decent amount of money. I'm pretty OK with this restriction as it doesn't actually prevent me from buying one if I were so inclined. (I'm not, mainly due to the waste of money that full auto is. That, and I can rent one if I feel the need to spray bullets at a target) I do know several people who own fully automatic guns. They pretty much stay in the gun safe. They're not practical for any use, in general.

When it comes to things like RPGs, grenades, etc. I think they should be legal, but even more restricted than full auto. First, you should need an explosives certificate stating that you know how to use and handle explosives responsibly. Again, there is very little practical purpose for weapons like this other than blowing shit up for fun.

I am a huge proponent of concealed carry. I carry almost daily and as I have stated, have been saved from being a victim because of it. When I got my license to carry, I had to go through a weekend course in firearms safety and concealed carry laws. Personally, I think it should have been more training before letting people carry. I am a very experienced shooter, an excellent shot, and very knowledgeable on firearms. Even with those qualifications, having professional training taught me a few things. People that go out and buy a gun, never shoot it, and then go the weekend training course can get a license. These are not people that I would want to have my back in a dangerous situation.

Over all, I think gun education needs to be drastically increased. I have taken time out of my range time to help people be safer with guns and teach them how to properly aim. The better educated people are with their guns, the safe everyone around them will be.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 08:58 AM)War Horse Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 08:50 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  So, how do you feel about restrictions on firearms?

Wont do any good, as only law abiding people will be restricted. Criminals will not care one way or the other.

Point in case, during the height of the drug cartels in SE Florida, you could find an Uzi within minutes.... fully auto, and illegal as hell.

I mostly agree with you, but I think some of the restrictions still need to be in place to protect the law abiding gun dealers. I know several private collectors who have an FFL and wouldn't sell to a criminal whether it was illegal to or not. The background check system is a great way to keep their conscious clear when selling weapons. They criminal may still get their hands on a gun, but it won't be through a reputable dealer that has a reputation to protect.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2014 09:38 AM by =jesse=.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
What kind of restrictions? I do favor some restrictions. I don't want the avergae joe blow owning milkor grenade launcher (even though I'd love to have one!!!).

There are restrictions in place already on barrel lengths, magazine capacity, rate of fire, etc. Anything other than semi auto, pump, level, bolt, or break action is going to be much more effort to buy. Not to mention you'll be paying out the ass. A semi auto AR-15 can be found for between $700-$1200 on average. A full auto M4 is going to be around $10,000-$15,000. I can drop a few hundred on a gun and it won't break the bank. I'm not at the stage in my life where I can just spend 15grand cash all willy nilly.

If you mean just restricting them outright...I think it's a moot point now. There are simply too many guns in America to do that. From an economic standpoint too it wouldn't work. That would be too many jobs and revenue lost from civilian usage (not just from the manufacturing standpoint, but shooting ranges, accessories).

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23-04-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
On training and education, I couldn't agree more. Like I said earlier, I was shocked at how easy it was to buy a gun. I went through my state and federal background check, but not once was I asked if I actually knew what I had or how to use it.

I remember going to a range one time with a teen who had a brand spanking new ar-15. Nice gun too. Eo-tech holographic up there and all the bells and whistles for a tacti-cool gun. The range master was on his ass right from the start as soon as we all heard him say 'I've got it set up just like my modern warfare m4'. First thing he did was pop in a mag and pull the trigger. Never chambered a round. Range master chambered it for him. Dude pulled the trigger and swung around in excitement. Range master caught it before he swept the firing line. Booted his ass out and told him he'd bring his rifle out after he had unloaded it, put it on safe, and packed it up.

This is a major reason why I prefer the NRA range. They give you a proficiency test. Had this kid been required to show some level of proficiency before buying, there's no way he would have gotten that gun.

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23-04-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 09:30 AM)=jesse= Wrote:  What kind of restrictions? I do favor some restrictions. I don't want the avergae joe blow owning milkor grenade launcher (even though I'd love to have one!!!).

There are restrictions in place already on barrel lengths, magazine capacity, rate of fire, etc. Anything other than semi auto, pump, level, bolt, or break action is going to be much more effort to buy. Not to mention you'll be paying out the ass. A semi auto AR-15 can be found for between $700-$1200 on average. A full auto M4 is going to be around $10,000-$15,000. I can drop a few hundred on a gun and it won't break the bank. I'm not at the stage in my life where I can just 15grand cash all willy nilly.

If you mean just restricting them outright...I think it's a moot point now. There are simply too many guns in America to do that. From an economic standpoint too it wouldn't work. That would be too many jobs and revenue lost from civilian usage (not just from the manufacturing standpoint, but shooting ranges, accessories).

I didn't even touch on the "assault weapon" bans and restrictions.

Here's what I think of those. They're stupid. They're laws written by people who are completely ignorant of guns. Any of the guns that I own that would be classified as an "assault weapon" could easily come into compliance with a few cosmetic changes. The only functional difference would be how often I have to swap out magazines, and that takes less time than a single well aimed shot.

The term "assault weapon" didn't even exist until anti-gun people invented it to describe a gun that looks like a military weapon in order to scare people into thinking that this classification of weapons was somehow more inherently dangerous than a hunting rifle. The Ruger Mini 14 is a perfect example of this. Here is a picture of a Mini14.

[Image: Ruger_Mini_14.jpg]

Notice how it is dressed in the top. It has a folding stock, a pistol grip, and a shoulder strap. These are the things that make this gun an "assault weapon". If you were to remove the black metal dressing and install the wooden one, it magically is no longer an assault weapon even though the functionality of the gun has not been affected in the slightest.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Yea, unfortunately if it looks scary...then its a military grade assault weapon with 30 round clip magazines, lol.

There was an old video with a Congresswoman (Carolyn something) who was trying to describe what a barrel shroud was. She described it as that thing on your shoulder that goes up...then they showed a picture of a Predator and his shoulder cannon. That still makes me crack up

Ruger mini14 is a sweet gun. Personally I like the wood grain better. Mini-14...ranch gun. AR-15...assault weapon.

Side note...I've been sitting on the fence about my next gun. I really like the wood mini14, but I've also had my eye on a lever action 30-30.

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23-04-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 10:00 AM)=jesse= Wrote:  Yea, unfortunately if it looks scary...then its a military grade assault weapon with 30 round clip magazines, lol.

There was an old video with a Congresswoman (Carolyn something) who was trying to describe what a barrel shroud was. She described it as that thing on your shoulder that goes up...then they showed a picture of a Predator and his shoulder cannon. That still makes me crack up

Ruger mini14 is a sweet gun. Personally I like the wood grain better. Mini-14...ranch gun. AR-15...assault weapon.

Side note...I've been sitting on the fence about my next gun. I really like the wood mini14, but I've also had my eye on a lever action 30-30.

I'd go with the Mini14 or some other .223 variant like an AR. I'm building an AR slowly right now. I am doing this so I can buy the individual high quality parts one at a time. By the end, I'll have a gun that's worth a few thousand dollars and won't have paid for any of the junk parts that come on many pre-built ARs. The modular nature of the AR platform is what makes me like it best.

It really depends on what you already own and what you want in a gun. The 30-30 lever action is a pretty sweet gun, but I much prefer semi auto. The only rifle I own that isn't semi is my Remington 700. But I own that for competition purposes. I use my FiL's AR10 on the rare occasion that I go hunting. It's plenty accurate and chambered in .308 and if I need a second shot to take down my prey, I don't have to worry about chambering another round.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 10:00 AM)=jesse= Wrote:  Yea, unfortunately if it looks scary...then its a military grade assault weapon with 30 round clip magazines, lol.

There was an old video with a Congresswoman (Carolyn something) who was trying to describe what a barrel shroud was. She described it as that thing on your shoulder that goes up...then they showed a picture of a Predator and his shoulder cannon. That still makes me crack up

Ruger mini14 is a sweet gun. Personally I like the wood grain better. Mini-14...ranch gun. AR-15...assault weapon.

Side note...I've been sitting on the fence about my next gun. I really like the wood mini14, but I've also had my eye on a lever action 30-30.

Here's the video you're talking about. There are dozens of such videos of people who wrote anti-gun legislation revealing their complete ignorance of guns. Diane Feinstein once swept a crowd of reporters with an AK47 while talking about how dangerous the gun is. No, Diane, you are the dangerous one in this situation.




Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 05:29 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Because, unfotunatly, we're not all that civilized in the US , add to that somewhat of a lingering frontier mentality, gangs and other violent folks in this country, and you get people that want the most out of their "protection", tho very few are proficient in its use. Undecided
Does it make sense to make war guns available to the mentally ill, depressed or to violent or people with anger management issues?
Do you really think that if you too have a gun then you are safe because you will always win in a gun fight?

Gangs fight gangs, you can avoid them without guns.

(23-04-2014 06:22 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I have only ever used mine for sport shooting. It's a semi-automatic rifle. The same as any other semi auto rifle that shoots 7.62. Full autos are highly restricted and generally only owned by collectors and people who like to waste money spraying bullets at a target.

It's no different than me buying a remington semi auto hunting rifle. The AK is less accurate than most other rifles, but it is reliable as hell. You can abuse an AK and it will still work just fine after shaking the dirt out. My other semi auto rifles that are more accurate need to be babied and cleaned regularly to function well. That's the main reason I own an AK. It is an inexpensive gun that fires a widely available cartridge that is also inexpensive. I can take the rifle to the range, practice with it, and not spend a small fortune on ammo. Some of my other guns I only shoot every so often because ammo is more expensive or currently unavailable.
For shooting targets at a target range a .308 bolt action will do just as well as an AK47 but for a tortured and depressed teenager an AK47 is much more useful when going on a killing spree at school.


(23-04-2014 06:25 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Ask shop owners in LA why they might need an AK during a riot. Having a semi auto rifle with 30 rds becomes very relevant when people are trying to break into your store, home, office and do bad things to you.
Yes, that is some crazy shit there.
How well would have the Koreans feared if the rioters also had war grade weapons, AK's, sniper rifles etc?
Are you yourself really that scared of being the target in a riot? Maybe it is time to move to a civilised and peaceful country rather than arm yourself to the hilt and hope that you are as good as Rambo against an "army" of opposition.
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