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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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23-04-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Believe it or not, a country becomes more civilized and polite when everbody is carrying a gun.

Thats why the 20s-40s where less violent here in the US, most everybody did carry, and people knew to mind their Ps&Qs.

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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23-04-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:26 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Believe it or not, a country becomes more civilized and polite when everbody is carrying a gun.
No, I don't believe that.
It sounds like propaganda spread by companies looking to sell guns.

What logic goes behind that thinking?
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23-04-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:29 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 01:26 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Believe it or not, a country becomes more civilized and polite when everbody is carrying a gun.
No, I don't believe that.
It sounds like propaganda spread by companies looking to sell guns.

What logic goes behind that thinking?

Well, would you mouth off or try pulling shit, knowing the other guy is armed as well ?

Not saying it wont happen, but odds are greatly improved to keep to the polite side of things.

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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23-04-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 05:29 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Because, unfotunatly, we're not all that civilized in the US , add to that somewhat of a lingering frontier mentality, gangs and other violent folks in this country, and you get people that want the most out of their "protection", tho very few are proficient in its use. Undecided
Does it make sense to make war guns available to the mentally ill, depressed or to violent or people with anger management issues?
Do you really think that if you too have a gun then you are safe because you will always win in a gun fight?

Gangs fight gangs, you can avoid them without guns.

First and foremost. These are not "war guns". Saying that they are is simply disingenuous. These are rifles. The ones that are available to buy at your local gun store are not fully automatic bullet hoses. Functionally, they are no different than what is classified as a "hunting rifle", they simply look different. See my example of the Mini 14.

To your points:

No, I don't think we should make guns available to the dangerously mentally ill or to people with a history of violence. Depression? Really? I have depression and I am a gun owner. No, I don't think I shouldn't be able to own a gun because of it. My depression has no bearing on whether or not I am a violent person.

No, I don't think that I will automatically be safe because I also have a gun. That's stupid. However, I stand a MUCH better chance of surviving an attack if I can return fire. Would you rather sit there, terrified, waiting for the gunman to get to you, or would you rather fight back and stand a chance of taking him out. Saving your life and others in the process?

Gangs fight other gangs, but not exclusively. Gangs target entire neighborhoods for vandalism, theft, carjacking, etc. I can not simply avoid gangs altogether. First, I have no idea who is and isn't a gang member. Second, I have no control over where they travel to. I have seen "gangs" hanging out at even the nice malls and shopping centers around here. As I said, I live in a relatively low crime area, but even there I was subjected to being mugged.
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(23-04-2014 06:22 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I have only ever used mine for sport shooting. It's a semi-automatic rifle. The same as any other semi auto rifle that shoots 7.62. Full autos are highly restricted and generally only owned by collectors and people who like to waste money spraying bullets at a target.

It's no different than me buying a remington semi auto hunting rifle. The AK is less accurate than most other rifles, but it is reliable as hell. You can abuse an AK and it will still work just fine after shaking the dirt out. My other semi auto rifles that are more accurate need to be babied and cleaned regularly to function well. That's the main reason I own an AK. It is an inexpensive gun that fires a widely available cartridge that is also inexpensive. I can take the rifle to the range, practice with it, and not spend a small fortune on ammo. Some of my other guns I only shoot every so often because ammo is more expensive or currently unavailable.
For shooting targets at a target range a .308 bolt action will do just as well as an AK47 but for a tortured and depressed teenager an AK47 is much more useful when going on a killing spree at school.
No, it won't. The two guns have completely different capabilities, accuracies, and ranges. An AK is a much better gun to shoot close targets. My bolt action is much better for long range.

Just because some people use a tool for terrible purposes doesn't mean that the tool is evil. Yeah, a depressed teenager may use an AK, or they may use a pistol, or they may perch atop a tower and take out 16 people and wound 32 others with a bolt action rifle. The responsibility for the action still rests upon the actor, not the stage or props.

Walt Whitman bell tower shooting.
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(23-04-2014 06:25 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Ask shop owners in LA why they might need an AK during a riot. Having a semi auto rifle with 30 rds becomes very relevant when people are trying to break into your store, home, office and do bad things to you.
Yes, that is some crazy shit there.
How well would have the Koreans feared if the rioters also had war grade weapons, AK's, sniper rifles etc?
Are you yourself really that scared of being the target in a riot? Maybe it is time to move to a civilised and peaceful country rather than arm yourself to the hilt and hope that you are as good as Rambo against an "army" of opposition.

Again, it's a matter of ease of victimization. Even if the rioters had guns themselves, (several in fact did) they would still have a preservation instinct that would dissuade them from going after dangerous prey. Rioters are looking to fuck shit up, they're not looking to get killed. If a group of armed rioters saw a group of armed people in a defensible position like the Koreans had, they would most likely choose an unarmed target. It's simply easier to go after a target that can't shoot back.

Lets say for an instant that the rioters were armed heavily and decided to go after the armed Koreans anyway. The Koreans still stand a hell of a lot better chances by being armed and returning fire than if they were to just roll over without a fight.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Well, would you mouth off
I like the idea of freedom of speech.
Sometimes discussions get heated, sometimes people get angry, sometimes they walk away, sometimes they push and shove, sometimes they punch.

It would be great if they aren't carrying guns and in the heat of an angry moment pull it out and shoot someone.

(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  ...or try pulling shit, knowing the other guy is armed as well ?
An angry person, depressed person or a mentally instable person doesn't care so much about consequences, that act first and think later.

(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Not saying it wont happen, but odds are greatly improved to keep to the polite side of things.
I don't mind people not being polite, I just don't want things escalating into a lethal gun fight.
When I see two people in a fist fight on the street I walk past and go about my business. But if two people are in a gun fight then I too need to duck for cover because bullets don't always hit their target and they travel quite a distance.
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23-04-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 01:29 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, I don't believe that.
It sounds like propaganda spread by companies looking to sell guns.

What logic goes behind that thinking?

Well, would you mouth off or try pulling shit, knowing the other guy is armed as well ?

Not saying it wont happen, but odds are greatly improved to keep to the polite side of things.

Go to a gun show. It's one of the most polite environments I have ever been in. Why? because EVERYONE is armed there. Or at least has the potential to be armed.

When someone is armed, you have one valid way of dealing with them... peaceably. In an unarmed society, the guy with the biggest muscles can force those weaker to do whatever they want because they can not fight back effectively. When I am armed, no one can threaten me by physically over powering me, which is not hard to do to me. If everyone is armed and they have a disagreement, they must chose between a peaceable resolution or a gun battle. No one wants to get into a gun battle.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Well, would you mouth off
I like the idea of freedom of speech.
Sometimes discussions get heated, sometimes people get angry, sometimes they walk away, sometimes they push and shove, sometimes they punch.

It would be great if they aren't carrying guns and in the heat of an angry moment pull it out and shoot someone.

(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  ...or try pulling shit, knowing the other guy is armed as well ?
An angry person, depressed person or a mentally instable person doesn't care so much about consequences, that act first and think later.

(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Not saying it wont happen, but odds are greatly improved to keep to the polite side of things.
I don't mind people not being polite, I just don't want things escalating into a lethal gun fight.
When I see two people in a fist fight on the street I walk past and go about my business. But if two people are in a gun fight then I too need to duck for cover because bullets don't always hit their target and they travel quite a distance.

This is silly. I'm sorry, but I have been in MANY verbal altercations while armed and never once thought it would be a good idea to pull my gun. Anyone who would, is what we call a psychopath. See my response on mentally ill people for that.

A mentally ill person or one who acts first without regard to the consequences is going to act that way regardless of whether or not I'm armed. I would much rather be able to defend myself from that person than not.

We don't have "wild west" style shootouts over arguments here. That's hollywood idiocy. When things like that DO happen, they're generally gang related, and those people didn't get their guns legally anyways, so restrictions aren't going to affect them in the slightest.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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23-04-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:42 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  In an unarmed society, the guy with the biggest muscles can force those weaker to do whatever they want because they can not fight back effectively.
That's not true.
I live in a mostly unarmed society and the muscleheads don't rule the roost. In fact if the muscleheads excert physical violence then they get a criminal record and can't travel and sometimes go to prison.

(23-04-2014 01:42 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  When I am armed, no one can threaten me by physically over powering me, which is not hard to do to me. If everyone is armed and they have a disagreement, they must chose between a peaceable resolution or a gun battle. No one wants to get into a gun battle.
Some people would love the excitement of a gun battle. I'm sure there are many Texan's who dream about having the opportunity to be the hero of the day.
I have discussed guns with others who have said they would pullout their gun and potentially kill someone if they caught them stealling their own car, even if their car was insured.
It seems to me having guns increases the potential of a gun fight.
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23-04-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
War guns...*sigh*. Technically everything is a war gun, just as technically ever car is a race car. A .308 bolt action is a war gun. No, mentally ill shouldn't be able to get their hands on them. We agree that's a big problem.

Avoiding gangs...sure. I'll make sure to avoid all bad people too. Shit happens. Saying 'move to a civilized country' is a stupid thing to say. Civilized has nothing to do with it. There are rapes, murders, and robberies in affluent, 'civilized' areas all the time. And unfortunately some people can't afford to live in nicer/safer areas, even though they're friendly, good people. I can keep going..but this is a terrible argument to make against guns. I guess those kids in Newtown should have avoided that shooter by being in a more civilized area than Connecticut Facepalm

.308 works fine for target shooting. So does a .223, 7.62, 9mm, .45...what's your point? Is this an argument to caliber, capacity or or type of action? To caliber...7.62x39 is hella cheap. .308 is going to run you about a buck per trigger pull...not to mention some tax on your shoulder.

The tortured depressed teenager needs to be focused on. Not what tool he's using. Again, we agree there should be steps to keep guns out of certain peoples hands, but for all the effort put on guns, we don't often see a parallel focusing on improving the well being of children.

I doubt any of us here are comparing ourselves to Rambo. And if we were, we wouldn't be doing it with semi-auto weapons. We'd be doing it with a $70K full auto m60...but those are a little hard to come by. We're not out looking for fights or hoping to get attacked.

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23-04-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(23-04-2014 01:42 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 01:33 PM)War Horse Wrote:  Well, would you mouth off or try pulling shit, knowing the other guy is armed as well ?

Not saying it wont happen, but odds are greatly improved to keep to the polite side of things.

Go to a gun show. It's one of the most polite environments I have ever been in. Why? because EVERYONE is armed there. Or at least has the potential to be armed.

When someone is armed, you have one valid way of dealing with them... peaceably. In an unarmed society, the guy with the biggest muscles can force those weaker to do whatever they want because they can not fight back effectively. When I am armed, no one can threaten me by physically over powering me, which is not hard to do to me. If everyone is armed and they have a disagreement, they must chose between a peaceable resolution or a gun battle. No one wants to get into a gun battle.

An addendum to the gun show comment:

In the countless times I've been to a gun show, I have never once witnessed a shouting match. I have never once witnessed anyone being blatantly disrespectful to a vendor nor to a customer. Go to any other place where there are thousands of people present and count how many times people argue with each other in screaming matches, or how many times an employee there is demeaned. It happens all the time. I've worked for many big box retail establishments and have seen it even on the slowest days. You won't see that type of behavior at a gun show, because everyone is polite.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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