Poll: Do you support the right to bear arms?
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Keep Hunting Rifles Only
Pistols but not AR(s) + 3
Assualt Rifles + 3 & 4
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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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24-04-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 02:14 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You could use a gun for hunting, recreation (trapt, skeet and target), and self defense.
A bolt action 22 or 308, a shot gun or even a slug gun would be sufficient for hunting rabbit, birds.

I don't need guns for self defence, my country is mostly safe.

What would I need a semi automatic assualt rifle for? On the off chance, maybe 0.00001% chance that a riot of angry people are going to attack my house? Even then I'd have next to no chance to defend them off.

It seems to me to be highly irrational to live in fear thinking a person needs a semi automatic assualt rifle for defence.
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24-04-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Steve,


From your posts, I'm getting your main objections to guns are the following:

1) There is no reason to own one;
False. I have not said this. I have no problems with farmers owning guns to kill rabbits and possums and magpies.

(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  2) Owning and handling one makes you more reckless by the very nature of owning/handling it;
False. Owning a gun makes it more likely that you will shoot someone than if you don't have a gun.

If you get in a shoot out with someone, maybe you miss them, maybe some poor sod is behind the person you are shooting at.
If you pull a gun on someone then they have more incentive to shoot you.
Maybe you have aggressive or depressive tenancies, having a gun raises the chances that you go on a killing spree or just get angry at someone and shoot them.
If you see a person stealing your car, maybe your pride gets the better of you and you shoot them rather than let the steal something from you.
If your house gets robbed, maybe the thief steals your guns and uses them on someone else later down the track.
If a drunk person accidently comes into your house at night maybe you will be so scared you will shoot and kill them before you realise they are an unarmed drunk teenager trying to find their way home.
(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  3) Accidents - even fatal ones - can happen with it;
Yes but, I'm not too concerned if you shoot yourself or if your children shoot themselves by accident, that's your problem not mine.

(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  4) Crimes are committed with it; and
Yes, and there are a hell of a lot of petty criminals whom don't own guns in countries where guns are restricted.

(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  5) Unstable people own/use them.
Yes, it seems in America the gun lobbyists don't want background checks on potential gun owners.

Quote:Am I understanding this correctly? Is there anything I left out?
Yes,
Normal people can get moments of incredible anger or depression.
It is irrational to think 1 person can defend themselves against an angry armed mob.
It is irrational to think a person in a civilised country will need a semi automatic assault rifle for self defence.
It is irrational to think that all civilians are trained and careful with guns in a time of crisis.
It is irrational to think that when you are being mugged that you will have time and opportunity to grab your gun.
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24-04-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 02:26 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 02:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Absolutely. I am no hero. My life is more important to me than theirs.

You have the opportunity, and the ability to stop a bunch of students from getting murdered and you would turn, run, and leave them to die.

W.o.w. Just wow.
Are you married? Do you have young dependents?

If you lived near a school and you heard that there was a shooting fight going on, would you give a gun to your husband and send him off to save the day?
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24-04-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 05:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 02:26 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You have the opportunity, and the ability to stop a bunch of students from getting murdered and you would turn, run, and leave them to die.

W.o.w. Just wow.
Are you married? Do you have young dependents?

If you lived near a school and you heard that there was a shooting fight going on, would you give a gun to your husband and send him off to save the day?

No. No where did I even imply that situation. What I wa referring to is if I happened to physically BE THERE in the building when the shooting starting, I wouldn't just run out the door to save myself!

If you insist on me addressing exactly what you said, then I expect the same from you. Thank you.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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24-04-2014, 05:17 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 05:12 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 05:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Are you married? Do you have young dependents?

If you lived near a school and you heard that there was a shooting fight going on, would you give a gun to your husband and send him off to save the day?

No. No where did I even imply that situation. What I wa referring to is if I happened to physically BE THERE in the building when the shooting starting, I wouldn't just run out the door to save myself!

If you insist on me addressing exactly what you said, then I expect the same from you. Thank you.
OK, let's say you are there, in the building. You, your husband and your two young dependent children, you have the opportunity to flee to safety. Do you take the children and run but send your husband to risk his life to be a hero, or do you plead with him not to be a hero and to come to safety with the rest of his family?
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24-04-2014, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2014 05:34 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 04:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 02:14 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You could use a gun for hunting, recreation (trapt, skeet and target), and self defense.
A bolt action 22 or 308, a shot gun or even a slug gun would be sufficient for hunting rabbit, birds.

I don't need guns for self defence, my country is mostly safe.

What would I need a semi automatic assualt rifle for? On the off chance, maybe 0.00001% chance that a riot of angry people are going to attack my house? Even then I'd have next to no chance to defend them off.

It seems to me to be highly irrational to live in fear thinking a person needs a semi automatic assualt rifle for defence.

Right there. There is no such thing as a "semi-automatic assault rifle". assault rifles are selective fire. It's a small difference, but a difference nonetheless. Since you keep using these words, it's clear you know nothing about guns.

Further, pistols are also "semi-automatic."

Look it up.

When did I say assault rifles were for home defense? I said guns are for self defense, but under that category includes pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and regular ole' rifles. Again, please give me the same courtesy of sticking with what I actually said, if that's what you are asking of me.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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24-04-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 05:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 05:12 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  No. No where did I even imply that situation. What I wa referring to is if I happened to physically BE THERE in the building when the shooting starting, I wouldn't just run out the door to save myself!

If you insist on me addressing exactly what you said, then I expect the same from you. Thank you.
OK, let's say you are there, in the building. You, your husband and your two young dependent children, you have the opportunity to flee to safety. Do you take the children and run but send your husband to risk his life to be a hero, or do you plead with him not to be a hero and to come to safety with the rest of his family?

Nope. I would hide with my husband and children. But if the situation presented itself where the gunman walked by our hiding place, I would like to think that we would open fire on him.

You have no choice, in your situation. Most home invasions are pretty much the same too. Home owners will lock themselves into a room, and announce at the top of their lungs "do not come upstairs or I will shoot."

The thing you are envisioning is Hollywood. The disconnect here is when I say "stop a gunman" you envision "send your husband to risk his life to be a hero" in some kind of Hollywood Bruce Willis Yippee-ki-yay mother fucker sort of way.

When I say stop a gunman, it's shooting a gunman when the moment presents itself in way that reduces the danger to everyone. And if not, let the police handle it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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24-04-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 05:27 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Right there. There is no such thing as a "semi-automatic assault rifle". assault rifles are selective fire. It's a small difference, but a difference nonetheless. Since you keep using these words, it's clear you know nothing about guns.
It's clear I don't know the difference between (and don't care about the difference between) a semi automatic and an assault rifle.
You cannot assert that I know nothing about guns that is disingenuous.

(24-04-2014 05:27 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  When did I say assault rifles were for home defense? I said guns are for self defense, but under that category includes pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and regular ole' rifles. Again, please give me the same courtesy of sticking with what I actually said, if that's what you are asking of me.
My contrabutions to this thread has been with regards to whether a civilian in a civilised country needs a semi automatic such as an AK47.


(23-04-2014 06:22 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(23-04-2014 02:46 AM)Stevil Wrote:  What the fuck does a civilian in a civilised country need an AK47 for?

I have only ever used mine for sport shooting.
My conversation with Inmiy, was with regards to the need for it for sport shooting, but then he changed his tune and said it was needed primarily for defence.
You then joined this conversation.
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24-04-2014, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2014 06:47 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  False. Owning a gun makes it more likely that you will shoot someone than if you don't have a gun.

again, tautology that indicates nothing. You are more likely to get pregnant if you have a uterus.
owning a gun does not make it more likely you will shoot someone anymore than owning knives makes it more likely that you will stab someone.


(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you get in a shoot out with someone, maybe you miss them, maybe some poor sod is behind the person you are shooting at.

A "shoot out" implies that two people each have guns. Again, gun owners do not get into "shoot outs" with each other. That is hollywood nonsense.

Again, I must reiterate that we are talking about responsible lawful gun ownership. Not thug gang wars, which is irrelevant to gun laws/restrictions since laws mean nothing to criminals.

(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you pull a gun on someone then they have more incentive to shoot you.

So you clearly don't know the rules of firearms. Lemme educate you.

1) Always assume the gun is loaded
2) always point it in a safe direction
3) check the area surround the target
4) Never point the gun at something you are not prepared to shoot
5) don't shoot something you are not prepared to kill or destroy

So no gun owner (again, any reference I make to the words gun owner refer to lawful, responsible owners of guns) would ever "pull a gun on someone" unless that person was putting the gun owner in imminent danger. Would someone get hurt if I missed while firing a gunman that was attempting to fire on me? Yes, but as you stated before, your life is more important than theirs. Some risks are unavoidable to fight for survival.

(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Maybe you have aggressive or depressive tenancies, having a gun raises the chances that you go on a killing spree or just get angry at someone and shoot them.

This does happen, sadly, yes. People have gone on stabbing spree, too. Are you also for Knife control?


(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you see a person stealing your car, maybe your pride gets the better of you and you shoot them rather than let the steal something from you.


Depends on what state you live in, but stealing your car does not fall under the Castle Law. However, if my daughter was in the backseat, I'm not gonna sit there with my thumb up my ass.

(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If your house gets robbed, maybe the thief steals your guns and uses them on someone else later down the track.

uh huh. Cuz most gun owners leave their guns out in the open and not in locked - even biometric - gun safes. I leave my gun on the kitchen counter, next to the salt and pepper shakers. Now you are just being silly.

(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If a drunk person accidently comes into your house at night maybe you will be so scared you will shoot and kill them before you realise they are an unarmed drunk teenager trying to find their way home.

Gun owners call 911, and announce that they have a gun. Most gun owners don't leave their doors unlocked for an unknown drug person to come strolling on in. You are really being silly now. As I said before.....
(24-04-2014 05:50 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Most home invasions are pretty much the same too. Home owners will lock themselves into a room, and announce at the top of their lungs "do not come upstairs or I will shoot."

Even children can know how to use guns properly. No gun owner, even a minor, wants to shoot someone and in fact, goes to great lengths NOT to shoot.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/kendra-st-clair...d=17524438


(24-04-2014 03:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  5) Unstable people own/use them.
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, it seems in America the gun lobbyists don't want background checks on potential gun owners.

Not true. the NRA supports background checks, as do most gun owners. We want sensible and effective gun regulation. Not bureaucratic restrictions that do nothing (like banning barrel shrouds)

(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is irrational to think that when you are being mugged that you will have time and opportunity to grab your gun.

again, completely ignorant of everything. http://www.examiner.com/article/attempte...ed-citizen

and here are a bunch of other thwarted robberies.

http://k2radio.com/gun-carrying-employee...l-robbery/

http://nashua.patch.com/groups/police-an...r_03618622

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/07/1...-real-gun/
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/i...f_rob.html

Need I continue? Or have I made my point that your point was completely, and utterly, wrong.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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24-04-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  False. Owning a gun makes it more likely that you will shoot someone than if you don't have a gun.

again, tautology that indicates nothing. You are more likely to get pregnant if you have a uterus.
owning a gun does not make it more likely you will shoot someone anymore than owning knives makes it more likely that you will stab someone.
For God's sake, how can I shoot someone if I don't have a gun?
Of course owning a gun makes it more likely that I will shoot someone.
It goes from 0% chance to something higher than 0%.
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