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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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24-04-2014, 06:50 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My contrabutions to this thread has been with regards to whether a civilian in a civilised country needs a semi automatic such as an AK47.

ahhh...I guess i missed that. However, all semi-automatics? Do you know what Semi-automatic means? Or what automatic means? Because you seem to keep focusing on semi-automatic as though this makes the firearm more lethal.

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24-04-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  again, tautology that indicates nothing. You are more likely to get pregnant if you have a uterus.
owning a gun does not make it more likely you will shoot someone anymore than owning knives makes it more likely that you will stab someone.
For God's sake, how can I shoot someone if I don't have a gun?
Of course owning a gun makes it more likely that I will shoot someone.
It goes from 0% chance to something higher than 0%.

In the strictest, literal sense of the words, he's right...

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24-04-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  again, tautology that indicates nothing. You are more likely to get pregnant if you have a uterus.
owning a gun does not make it more likely you will shoot someone anymore than owning knives makes it more likely that you will stab someone.
For God's sake, how can I shoot someone if I don't have a gun?
Of course owning a gun makes it more likely that I will shoot someone.
It goes from 0% chance to something higher than 0%.

Yes, of course, but that indicates nothing about the dangers of guns! Your chances of getting pregnant are higher if you have a uterus. Your chances of getting into a car accident are higher if you get into a car. You have a higher chance of a getting into a airplane accident if you fly in a plane! That does not support your position in any way, nor does it support your claim that owning a gun will cause you to shoot someone anymore than owning a knife will make you stab someone.

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24-04-2014, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2014 07:02 PM by =jesse=.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Owning a gun makes me more likely to shoot someone...sure I'll give you that.

I am more likely to shoot someone, just as I am more likely to cause a car accident by owning a car. That's like saying, hey everyone, if we want to 100% stop every possible car accident from happening, get rid of cars!!! Eliminate drunk people by getting rid of alcohol. Eliminate stabbings by getting rid of anything with a point. Eliminate cuts by getting rid of anything with an edge. Saying guns make it more likely than someone will get shot is a given. Obviously people will get shot. Sometimes it's warranted, other times it's not. Using this as an argument to get rid of them is a little silly to me.

Everyone is different. Seems like you (stevil) are more likely to run and hide. In most instances, I completely agree. Majority of us gun owners aren't looking for fights. We enjoy the recreation of it and find comfort in the defense it provides. We like guns as others like computers, cars, wood working, etc. I keep a loaded 12 gauge and .45 for home defense. Not for the reasons I know of, but for the reasons I don't know. I keep them because while I have spent years boxing, training in muay thai, and brazilian jiu-jitsu, my wife has not.

You don't like guns? Good thing you live in an area where they are restricted. I sincerely hope nobody ever harms your family. I sincerely hope you never have to choose between defending them or running away. For me, if it's between killing somebody else, or allowing harm to come to my wife...it's a no brainer. I'll die before I let harm come to my wife, and yes, that means killing somebody to protect her.

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24-04-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:58 PM)=jesse= Wrote:  Owning a gun makes me more likely to shoot someone...sure I'll give you that.

I am more likely to shoot someone, just as I am more likely to cause a car accident by owning a car. That's like saying, hey everyone, if we want to 100% stop every possible car accident from happening, get rid of cars!!! Eliminate drunk people by getting rid of alcohol. Eliminate stabbings by getting rid of anything with a point. Eliminate cuts by getting rid of anything with an edge. Saying guns make it more likely than someone will get shot is a given. Obviously people will get shot. Sometimes it's warranted, other times it's not. Using this as an argument to get rid of them is a little silly to me.

Everyone is different. Seems like you (stevil) are more likely to run and hide. In most instances, I completely agree. Majority of us gun owners aren't looking for fights. We enjoy the recreation of it and find comfort in the defense it provides. We like guns as others like computers, cars, wood working, etc. I keep a loaded 12 gauge and .45 for home defense. Not for the reasons I know of, but for the reasons I don't know. I keep them because while I have spent years boxing, training in muay thai, and brazilian jiu-jitsu, my wife has not.

You don't like guns? Good thing you live in an area where they are restricted. I sincerely hope nobody ever harms your family. I sincerely hope you never have to choose between defending them or running away. For me, if it's between killing somebody else, or allowing harm to come to my wife...it's a no brainer. I'll die before I let harm come to my wife, and yes, that means killing somebody to protect her.

teach your wife to shoot. Not because she doesn't need you to protect her, but she needs to be able to use that weapon.

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24-04-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:51 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 06:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  For God's sake, how can I shoot someone if I don't have a gun?
Of course owning a gun makes it more likely that I will shoot someone.
It goes from 0% chance to something higher than 0%.

In the strictest, literal sense of the words, he's right...

Actually, if we are going to be strictly literal, "having a gun in my hand makes it more likely that I will shoot someone." is what he really meant. If a gun isn't in my hand, I can't use it. Guns don't shoot themselves. Ownership does not mean usage.

that is...if we are being strictly literal here...

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24-04-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you get in a shoot out with someone, maybe you miss them, maybe some poor sod is behind the person you are shooting at.

A "shoot out" implies that two people each have guns. Again, gun owners do not get into "shoot outs" with each other. That is hollywood nonsense.

Again, I must reiterate that we are talking about responsible lawful gun ownership. Not thug gang wars, which is irrelevant to gun laws/restrictions since laws mean nothing to criminals.
If you buy a gun for self defence then you are preparing yourself for a shoot out.
You yourself said "Wow" when I suggested that I would flee a situation where people were being shot. It seems you think I should join the fun and start shooting.


(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So no gun owner (again, any reference I make to the words gun owner refer to lawful, responsible owners of guns) would ever "pull a gun on someone" unless that person was putting the gun owner in imminent danger.
This is rubbish, There are many gun owners that mug people or rob shops by pointing guns at people without being in imminent danger themselves.

You reach for your own gun and the person pointing a gun at you will have no choice but to pull the trigger.

(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Maybe you have aggressive or depressive tenancies, having a gun raises the chances that you go on a killing spree or just get angry at someone and shoot them.

This does happen, sadly, yes. People have gone on stabbing spree, too. Are you also for Knife control?
Yes, I think teachers and school students should be banned from bringing sharp knives into school. Especially knives designed for hunting.

(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you see a person stealing your car, maybe your pride gets the better of you and you shoot them rather than let the steal something from you.


Depends on what state you live in, but stealing your car does not fall under the Castle Law. However, if my daughter was in the backseat, I'm not gonna sit there with my thumb up my ass.
That's fine, but I have had previous conversations with other pro-gun people that said they would shoot and potentially kill someone if they caught them stealing their car. This makes me think that some people aren't responsible enough to weild a gun.

(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If your house gets robbed, maybe the thief steals your guns and uses them on someone else later down the track.

uh huh. Cuz most gun owners leave their guns out in the open and not in locked - even biometric - gun safes.
Are you saying that guns never get stolen? That would be a silly thing to say.

(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If a drunk person accidently comes into your house at night maybe you will be so scared you will shoot and kill them before you realise they are an unarmed drunk teenager trying to find their way home.

Gun owners call 911, and announce that they have a gun. Most gun owners don't leave their doors unlocked for an unknown drug person to come strolling on in. You are really being silly now. As I said before.....
This stuff happens. In some states in USA gun owner have no obligation to call 911 or to announce they have a gun or to assess if there is any threat. They have cart blance licence to kill people if they should have the misfortune to stumble onto their property.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/30...55535.html
He thought she was holding a torch so he shot at her. Later he called 911.

(24-04-2014 05:50 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, it seems in America the gun lobbyists don't want background checks on potential gun owners.

Not true. the NRA supports background checks, as do most gun owners. We want sensible and effective gun regulation. Not bureaucratic restrictions that do nothing (like banning barrel shrouds)
http://www.ehow.com/about_4799052_gun-ba...-laws.html
Quote:The Straw Purchase Loophole
The Brady Law is actually relatively easy to circumvent, through "straw purchases." This is when a person purchases a gun through a surrogate. Only the purchaser receives a background check. Straw purchases are technically illegal under a 1968 law, but gifts are not, granting a very large loophole to any surrogate who has a demonstrable relationship with the person who actually wants the gun.

The Gun Show Loophole
Another loophole is that the law applies only to licensed dealers. Non-licensed dealers can still sell firearms, subject to other federal, state or local regulations, and without making background checks. This exemption for private sales has been dubbed the "Gun Show Loophole," as these events are where many of those transactions take place.


(24-04-2014 06:42 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 04:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is irrational to think that when you are being mugged that you will have time and opportunity to grab your gun.

again, completely ignorant of everything. http://www.examiner.com/article/attempte...ed-citizen

and here are a bunch of other thwarted robberies.

http://k2radio.com/gun-carrying-employee...l-robbery/

http://nashua.patch.com/groups/police-an...r_03618622

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/07/1...-real-gun/
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/i...f_rob.html

Need I continue? Or have I made my point that your point was completely, and utterly, wrong.
I am sure there are some success stories, it does not thwart my point.
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24-04-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 07:04 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 06:58 PM)=jesse= Wrote:  Owning a gun makes me more likely to shoot someone...sure I'll give you that.

I am more likely to shoot someone, just as I am more likely to cause a car accident by owning a car. That's like saying, hey everyone, if we want to 100% stop every possible car accident from happening, get rid of cars!!! Eliminate drunk people by getting rid of alcohol. Eliminate stabbings by getting rid of anything with a point. Eliminate cuts by getting rid of anything with an edge. Saying guns make it more likely than someone will get shot is a given. Obviously people will get shot. Sometimes it's warranted, other times it's not. Using this as an argument to get rid of them is a little silly to me.

Everyone is different. Seems like you (stevil) are more likely to run and hide. In most instances, I completely agree. Majority of us gun owners aren't looking for fights. We enjoy the recreation of it and find comfort in the defense it provides. We like guns as others like computers, cars, wood working, etc. I keep a loaded 12 gauge and .45 for home defense. Not for the reasons I know of, but for the reasons I don't know. I keep them because while I have spent years boxing, training in muay thai, and brazilian jiu-jitsu, my wife has not.

You don't like guns? Good thing you live in an area where they are restricted. I sincerely hope nobody ever harms your family. I sincerely hope you never have to choose between defending them or running away. For me, if it's between killing somebody else, or allowing harm to come to my wife...it's a no brainer. I'll die before I let harm come to my wife, and yes, that means killing somebody to protect her.

teach your wife to shoot. Not because she doesn't need you to protect her, but she needs to be able to use that weapon.

oh she absolutely knows. I'm comfortable scrapping hand to hand. I've done it plenty of times. I'm also 5'10, 180lbs, where as she is 5'4 or 5 5'5...120/30 lbs. As far as a hand to hand scrap goes, probability is in my favor. She grew up in a hunting family. She can shoot better than I can. I will even admit she's a much better shot with our Ruger SR9 than I am.

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24-04-2014, 07:24 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
So Stevil, what do you for defending your family? Let's just say, hypothetically, someone breaks in and is assaulting your wife or kid.

To the comment about a drunk coming into the home, my stance is the same. I stand by the bedroom and announce I have a gun and we've called the cops. Advance towards me and get shot. Stop and obey commands, and don't get shot. Turn tail and run and don' get shot. Once the sanctity of the home is violated, your life is forfeit. I could give a shit what your reasons are. Whatever the reason is, it's not going to trump the safety of my family, and I will absolutely, without hesitation, kill, or die, to protect them.

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24-04-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(24-04-2014 07:24 PM)=jesse= Wrote:  So Stevil, what do you for defending your family? Let's just say, hypothetically, someone breaks in and is assaulting your wife or kid.

To the comment about a drunk coming into the home, my stance is the same. I stand by the bedroom and announce I have a gun and we've called the cops. Advance towards me and get shot. Stop and obey commands, and don't get shot. Turn tail and run and don' get shot. Once the sanctity of the home is violated, your life is forfeit. I could give a shit what your reasons are. Whatever the reason is, it's not going to trump the safety of my family, and I will absolutely, without hesitation, kill, or die, to protect them.

That's pretty much how I feel about home defense. We've had accounts where intruders have broken into and killed unarmed people in the news. If someone is risking their safety to break into my house, they no doubt have ill intent. If that ill intent continues after they are warned, I can safely assume my life is in potential jeopardy. It's me or them. I'll be damned if I let them go after my family without a fight. In oregon, breaking into a house is considered right to shoot on sight.

Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]

Someone breaks into my house, it's considered use of deadly force. If I feel my life is about to be threatened or the life of my family, use of deadly force.

We've had a situation with a family friend where someone showed up on the guy's doorstep mad about some stupid situation. The dude was drunk as a skunk. He threatened to come back with a gun and kill the guy. The home owner said if he did that, he'd be calling the police and getting out his own gun. The guy showed up with a gun and was shot on sight. Home owner went to court and was released with no charges.

We had another last year where an old man had his home broken into and was threatened at knife point, shot the intruder and was also released with no charges.

I get that people get all bent out of shape over assault rifles and whatever... but I'm not going to question the safety of my family or give any excuses not to defend them. If it comes down to it, I'll do it.

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