Poll: Do you support the right to bear arms?
Yes
No
Keep Hunting Rifles Only
Pistols but not AR(s) + 3
Assualt Rifles + 3 & 4
[Show Results]
Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-04-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 01:38 PM)wazzel Wrote:  The US went to war with Iraq becasue the leaders of the US though the leaders of Iraq had WMD's. The WMD (if they even existed - side discussion I know) did not even call anyone a bad name or stick their tougne out.
In a causal chain you could consider the following:
- Perception was that Iraq had WMDs
- the perception that Iraq had WMDs caused Bush to get scared
- Bush being scared caused him to pre-emptively strike Iraq.


So it is the fear instilled by the perceived threat of the weapon (in the hands of an opponent) that can cause violence.

With our drunk girl in the dark story, if she didnt have a gun, you wouldn't need to be immediately scared of her if there was a distance between you and her. This might give you time to turn the light on and identify your target. However if you are fearful that she has a gun you will not want to stand up near the light switch, instead you will peek around a corner and shoot her to remove the potential threat.

It seems guns may make a fearful and paranoid society.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 01:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 01:38 PM)wazzel Wrote:  The US went to war with Iraq becasue the leaders of the US though the leaders of Iraq had WMD's. The WMD (if they even existed - side discussion I know) did not even call anyone a bad name or stick their tougne out.
In a causal chain you could consider the following:
- Perception was that Iraq had WMDs
- the perception that Iraq had WMDs caused Bush to get scared
- Bush being scared caused him to pre-emptively strike Iraq.


So it is the fear instilled by the perceived threat of the weapon (in the hands of an opponent) that can cause violence.

With our drunk girl in the dark story, if she didnt have a gun, you wouldn't need to be immediately scared of her if there was a distance between you and her. This might give you time to turn the light on and identify your target. However if you are fearful that she has a gun you will not want to stand up near the light switch, instead you will peek around a corner and shoot her to remove the potential threat.

It seems guns may make a fearful and paranoid society.

I think we are splitting hairs and might be making a similar point. Weapons do indeed influence a persons decision to do or not do violence, but they do not themselves cause violence. Which I think is very similar to your point.

Your drunk girl story is very nice. What is to say it was a big guy with a knife or baseball bat that broke in with the desire to kill the home owner? We could make up situations to make statements all we like, but it will go nowhere.

Taking guns out of the picture will not stop violence from happening. It is nice to think it would, but we know better. People have been killing each other long before firearms and will continue to kill each other if firearms ever no longer exist.

It is not the tool's fault on how it is used.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like wazzel's post
28-04-2014, 01:59 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
lol, America is plagued by drunk girls breaking into peoples homes. Good thing it's never a someone with bad intentions, be it male or female. You've convinced me Stevil. If someone ever breaks into my home, I'm going to risk my families safety because it is obviously going to be a drunk unarmed girl who just needs a place to sit and something warm to drink.

The religion of one age, is the literary entertainment of the next.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like =jesse='s post
28-04-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 01:12 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not stepping in anything. I have made my position perfectly clear.

Sorry Chas, sometimes I forget how old you are. Tongue

Just kidding.

"I smell what you're stepping in" is hip-kid lingo for, "I hear ya", or "I see what you're saying". That was I all I meant.

Um, the correct answer is "I dig ya, man" ........ lets get the decades right Angry

Tongue

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes War Horse's post
28-04-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 12:03 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not stepping in anything. I have made my position perfectly clear.

Let's try again: Guns do not cause violence. The presence of guns can make violence more deadly.

Jumping in, just going by this comment.

Since guns can destroy so easily, so recklessly, you're going to consider options and take actions you would normally not in an environment without a gun(s).

That means pre-emptive "violence" is the wisest option since if you wait, your life/safety could be utterly and completely forfeit. "Acting" first guarantees safety.

Weapons cause violence. Weapons exacerbate the inevitable violence.

You are full of shit when you presume you know what I am going to do.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 12:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 12:03 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Jumping in, just going by this comment.

Since guns can destroy so easily, so recklessly, you're going to consider options and take actions you would normally not in an environment without a gun(s).

That means pre-emptive "violence" is the wisest option since if you wait, your life/safety could be utterly and completely forfeit. "Acting" first guarantees safety.

Weapons cause violence. Weapons exacerbate the inevitable violence.
You are right.

A person at home, in bed at night, wakes up because they hear a noise in their house.

Scenario 1: In a society largely without guns
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They turn on the light and see that it is a drunk unarmed girl
They talk to her, sit her down, give her a warm drink

Scenario 2: In a society largely with guns, gun violence is common, they feel they need guns for self defense
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They yell out "Stop, I have a gun!"
The figure still moves
They shot it
The figure drops to the ground.
They turn on the light and see a dead unarmed girl.

No. You clearly know nothing about self-defense. You make a fool of yourself every time you post.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 12:45 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 12:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You are right.

A person at home, in bed at night, wakes up because they hear a noise in their house.

Scenario 1: In a society largely without guns
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They turn on the light and see that it is a drunk unarmed girl
They talk to her, sit her down, give her a warm drink

Scenario 2: In a society largely with guns, gun violence is common, they feel they need guns for self defense
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They yell out "Stop, I have a gun!"
The figure still moves
They shot it
The figure drops to the ground.
They turn on the light and see a dead unarmed girl.

To tie the two more closely:

If you know a gun (or any destructive weapon) is present, or very VERY likely that it is present, your actions are going to be more swift and more final. "That shadow could be the end of me instantly, I must act violently now."

If you know that a gun is not present, or is very VERY unlikely of it being present, you have more breathing space, your actions can be more thought out, and you have more options. "That shadow at worst needs to exert effort and time to cause me grave harm, let alone moderate harm. I have have a greater chance to fend off/seek help/survive/take a second look at the shadow/take a leap of faith the shadow is safe"

To recap, my premise is that weapons (the ones that are more deadly and "final" in use) can and do initiate violence. As well as exacerbate violence.

Sounds great, except it's bullshit.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  You make a fool of yourself every time you post.
I haven't read any posts of yours in this thread that offer any value what so ever.
You don't address issues or concerns, you don't offer any insights, just throw assertions and personal attacks.
That's why I find it pointless addressing your posts in this thread.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 07:25 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 06:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  You make a fool of yourself every time you post.
I haven't read any posts of yours in this thread that offer any value what so ever.
You don't address issues or concerns, you don't offer any insights, just throw assertions and personal attacks.
That's why I find it pointless addressing your posts in this thread.

You haven't understood any of my posts. You are not only ignorant of the facts, you believe things that are demonstrably untrue.

I (and others) have repeatedly corrected your misunderstandings, but you refuse to listen.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 07:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  I (and others) have repeatedly corrected your misunderstandings, but you refuse to listen.
You havent corrected any misunderstandings.
You merely respond with snark and personal attacks.

I don't see the point of your style.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: