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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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29-04-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 01:59 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  You'd have to ask them. Sorry mate, I'm not one of those people, and I think they're rarer than you imply.
I haven't implied whether they are rare or common. You seem to read my posts with a negative light rather than to take them on face value.
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29-04-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That's not what I was doing.
Would I go for a drive in a car without a seat belt, probably not, unless I was desperate. I would ordinarily choose to avoid riding in that car because I would see the risk as too great, the odds as too high.

But from discussion with some anti gun control people it seems to me some people see the risk too great, the odds as too high regarding having a society without guns and personally being without guns themselves. I was just wondering for those people if this view of the risks inhibits them with regards to overseas travel.

Your going off on extreme hypotheticals just to prove a point.

About a year ago a 80 year old couple was beaten to death here, by 2 teenage crack heads... no gun in the house, and the male was found in the living room floor, they said it indicates that he heard the noise and got out of bed to investigate. They were beaten by tire irons.... to death.

So tell me , what would have equaled out the difference in self defense here?

A 80 yo man confronted by two teenage buglars, that indeed killed him and his sleeping wife ..... well ?

Cops around here show up within 20-30 minutes, if your lucky.

We live in a violent society, at least here, and need to react accordingly.

I doubt this will get through to you, and since you dont live here, cant relate.

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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29-04-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 02:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 01:59 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  You'd have to ask them. Sorry mate, I'm not one of those people, and I think they're rarer than you imply.
I haven't implied whether they are rare or common. You seem to read my posts with a negative light rather than to take them on face value.

Because I'm not blind and can see the setup for the argument that Europe is safer than America. It's a clumsy argument, and an old one. Do some reading on the Czech Republic for me.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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29-04-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 02:05 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 02:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I haven't implied whether they are rare or common. You seem to read my posts with a negative light rather than to take them on face value.

Because I'm not blind and can see the setup for the argument that Europe is safer than America. It's a clumsy argument, and an old one. Do some reading on the Czech Republic for me.

it is also not cut and dry. Strict gun control works in the UK and Japan but does not in Russia and South Africa (just some examples). There has to be some driver other than the weapon when it comes to crime.
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29-04-2014, 03:38 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 02:05 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Because I'm not blind and can see the setup for the argument that Europe is safer than America. It's a clumsy argument, and an old one. Do some reading on the Czech Republic for me.
I don't live in Europe.
I have no agenda, I am just wanting open discussion. If you read between the lines, assume the worst etc, then it inhibits free discussion.
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29-04-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 02:02 PM)War Horse Wrote:  About a year ago a 80 year old couple was beaten to death here, by 2 teenage crack heads... no gun in the house, and the male was found in the living room floor, they said it indicates that he heard the noise and got out of bed to investigate. They were beaten by tire irons.... to death.

So tell me , what would have equaled out the difference in self defense here?
There is no fool proof solution.

With regards to the gun debate we need to work out several aspects.
1. Why have guns, what value do they provide?
2. Why not have guns, what detriment do they offer?

Ultimately we need to assess if 1 outweighs 2 or if 2 outweighs 1.
If 2 outweighs 1 then we could look at mitigations to change these factors.
3. What types of guns are necessary to provide value and reduce detriment?
4. What measures are needed to reduce detriment without inhibiting value?

If all mitigation are in place and 2 still outweighs 1 then ban all guns. If 1 outweighs 2 then make guns available given 3,4 if necessary.

Regarding "equaled out the difference" you are suggesting that if an old man has a gun he can defend against a stronger attacker.
The flipside is that when you give everyone guns then small people can attack big people. It comes down to who strikes first. Usually it is the attacker that draws first because until the attacker shows their motives the victim doesn't know that there is a problem.

Also if people are following the law they generally have their guns locked up, ammo locked up, if they need to get to it in a hurry then they have a problem.

So I don't think it is as simple as pointing out an example of an Old person having been attacked at home, stating that he might have had a chance had he had a gun and then suggesting that everyone ought to have guns, even semi auto's and fully auto's.
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29-04-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Apologies if I come across a bit defensive at times, but people like me were literally accused of being one of the roots of societal evil--and lying, deluded monsters to boot--just one page ago. Plus the last time I had this debate on this forum it was against a disingenuous twatwaffle who claimed one position, but argued for another.

Quote:Also if people are following the law they generally have their guns locked up, ammo locked up, if they need to get to it in a hurry then they have a problem.

Actually, even in California, which has relatively strict laws, as long as there are no children in the house you can keep a gun locked, loaded, and safety off right next to your bed with no legal repercussions.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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29-04-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
I just wanted to step back and address this point:

(28-04-2014 12:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 12:03 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Jumping in, just going by this comment.

Since guns can destroy so easily, so recklessly, you're going to consider options and take actions you would normally not in an environment without a gun(s).

That means pre-emptive "violence" is the wisest option since if you wait, your life/safety could be utterly and completely forfeit. "Acting" first guarantees safety.

Weapons cause violence. Weapons exacerbate the inevitable violence.
You are right.

A person at home, in bed at night, wakes up because they hear a noise in their house.

Scenario 1: In a society largely without guns
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They turn on the light and see that it is a drunk unarmed girl
They talk to her, sit her down, give her a warm drink

Scenario 2: In a society largely with guns, gun violence is common, they feel they need guns for self defense
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They yell out "Stop, I have a gun!"
The figure still moves
They shot it
The figure drops to the ground.
They turn on the light and see a dead unarmed girl.

Scenario 2 would be ruled voluntary manslaughter (imperfect self-defense) and criminal negligence, for not doing ones legal obligation to be sure of your target before firing. Depending on the exact circumstances it could even be second degree murder. Even the Castle Doctrine wouldn't defend that.

I do agree that there should be better training regarding self-defense for gun owners, however. Situations like that are relatively uncommon, but they do happen occasionally.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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30-04-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 07:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Apologies if I come across a bit defensive at times, but people like me were literally accused of being one of the roots of societal evil--and lying, deluded monsters to boot--just one page ago. Plus the last time I had this debate on this forum it was against a disingenuous twatwaffle who claimed one position, but argued for another.
Where I come from guns aren't seen as for self defence.
If you own a pistol you must belong to a gun club. You are only allowed to take your gun to and from gun club and home. Nowhere else.

The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life.

When we hear of yet another mass shooting in America we generally just roll our eyes (as if to say well America and their constitutional right to bear arms).

So I do find it interesting to try and have conversations with Americans on the topic. But I find they are generally hostile and throw meme's or propoganda around. Certainly I have been under personal attack by at least a couple of people in this thread. It does seem quite difficult to have a gun conversation with some people.
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30-04-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 01:06 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 07:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Apologies if I come across a bit defensive at times, but people like me were literally accused of being one of the roots of societal evil--and lying, deluded monsters to boot--just one page ago. Plus the last time I had this debate on this forum it was against a disingenuous twatwaffle who claimed one position, but argued for another.
Where I come from guns aren't seen as for self defence.
If you own a pistol you must belong to a gun club. You are only allowed to take your gun to and from gun club and home. Nowhere else.

The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life.

When we hear of yet another mass shooting in America we generally just roll our eyes (as if to say well America and their constitutional right to bear arms).

So I do find it interesting to try and have conversations with Americans on the topic. But I find they are generally hostile and throw meme's or propoganda around. Certainly I have been under personal attack by at least a couple of people in this thread. It does seem quite difficult to have a gun conversation with some people.

Not everyone here in the US is in favor of the wild west mentality either.

Being one in favor of restricted gun ownership I find flaws in both sides arguments. They come across to me as best/worst case positions.

I am a gun owner. I have a hand gun and a small caliber target rifle. I like to target shoot. I will probably be getting more long guns in the not so distant future since I plan on taking up hunting agian.
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