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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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30-04-2014, 06:41 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
I am of the same opinion of guns as Doctor Who.
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30-04-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 01:06 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 07:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Apologies if I come across a bit defensive at times, but people like me were literally accused of being one of the roots of societal evil--and lying, deluded monsters to boot--just one page ago. Plus the last time I had this debate on this forum it was against a disingenuous twatwaffle who claimed one position, but argued for another.
Where I come from guns aren't seen as for self defence.
If you own a pistol you must belong to a gun club. You are only allowed to take your gun to and from gun club and home. Nowhere else.

The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life.

When we hear of yet another mass shooting in America we generally just roll our eyes (as if to say well America and their constitutional right to bear arms).

So I do find it interesting to try and have conversations with Americans on the topic. But I find they are generally hostile and throw meme's or propoganda around. Certainly I have been under personal attack by at least a couple of people in this thread. It does seem quite difficult to have a gun conversation with some people.

You have been attacked for having misinformation and no willingness to correct it.

No one, for instance, is walking around with assault rifles; very few people actually own assault rifles.

If you want to have a reasonable conversation, you must stick to facts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 06:41 AM)Foxen Wrote:  I am of the same opinion of guns as Doctor Who.

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30-04-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have been attacked for having misinformation and no willingness to correct it.

No one, for instance, is walking around with assault rifles; very few people actually own assault rifles.

If you want to have a reasonable conversation, you must stick to facts.
Nowhere have I asserted that people in the US are walking around with assault rifles. I don't know where you get that from.
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30-04-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(29-04-2014 07:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
Quote:Also if people are following the law they generally have their guns locked up, ammo locked up, if they need to get to it in a hurry then they have a problem.

Actually, even in California, which has relatively strict laws, as long as there are no children in the house you can keep a gun locked, loaded, and safety off right next to your bed with no legal repercussions.
That sounds to me to be more dangerous than the unlikely instance of having a home invasion.

When I did have a loan of a .22 or a shotgun. I never ever had the gun loaded in or near the house. The only time I had the safety off was just before I was about to pull the trigger and the only time I had the shotgun (I don't know the technical term for it) but with the barrel clicked together rather than broken in half for loading, again I only had it ready for firing a few moments before firing.
The thought of timing myself to see how quickly I could get shots off or how quickly I could reload had never occured to me. I treat a gun as a very dangerous weapon, thus with much caution and care.

The thought of having a loaded gun, with safety off next to my bed sounds very dangerous. To me, it seems more dangerous than an intruder because I think an accident is much more likely than a home invasion which I consider extremely unlikely although not impossible.

But I do understand the concerns of people whom feel they need a loaded gun nearby. If in the event of an intruder then they don't have time to assemble a locked up gun.
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30-04-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 12:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 12:03 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Jumping in, just going by this comment.

Since guns can destroy so easily, so recklessly, you're going to consider options and take actions you would normally not in an environment without a gun(s).

That means pre-emptive "violence" is the wisest option since if you wait, your life/safety could be utterly and completely forfeit. "Acting" first guarantees safety.

Weapons cause violence. Weapons exacerbate the inevitable violence.
You are right.

A person at home, in bed at night, wakes up because they hear a noise in their house.

Scenario 1: In a society largely without guns
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They turn on the light and see that it is a drunk unarmed girl
They talk to her, sit her down, give her a warm drink

Scenario 2: In a society largely with guns, gun violence is common, they feel they need guns for self defense
They get out of bed, and search the house.
They see a dark human shadow moving in their house
They yell out "Stop, I have a gun!"
The figure still moves
They shot it
The figure drops to the ground.
They turn on the light and see a dead unarmed girl.

You keep coming back to this unarmed drunk girl. You didn't read the story, Steve. This couple had been repeatedly stalked by one of their psychiatric patients. For 10 years.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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30-04-2014, 02:15 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 02:35 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(28-04-2014 09:40 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Following comment isn't directed at anyone particular. It came out long, so I understand the knee jerk reaction to ignore it. "If it's not concise, it's not worth reading."

We gather here on this forum because there are people in this world that not only hold irrational beliefs, but very harmful ones. And we wonder how can they hold onto something that's so irrational, so harmful, and so humiliating when considering they're being manipulated for profit by certain organizations.

This thread might not be a religious issue, but it's almost indistinguishable.

I understand firearms can be a cause for sense of identity and power. And a sense of deep comfort. But like religion, it's false, and harmful to everyone involved.

We don't live in a society of well regulated militias. You can try to twist the words "well" "regulated" and "militia" but that's dishonest.
You can try to compare firearms to swimming pools, or cars, but that's dishonest.
You can believe that firearms cause more good than harm, but that's dishonest.
You can believe that firearms save more lives than take or destroy, but that's dishonest.
You can believe society will collapse without firearms, but that's dishonest.
You can point to Switzerland as a model, but that's dishonest. You're ignoring every other first world country, and ignoring Switzerland's armed are government militias - people recruited/paid/trained by the government.
You can try to think a sea of firearms will save you from "the government". But you're following the same corrupting and undemocratic forces that want and profit from flooding the country in private firearms. You and we are the government - of, for, and by - act like it.

This is some deep religious like apologetic's and willful ignorance. Tens of thousands dying each year, for nothing... that's not acceptable.

Like with religion, look to the other secular countries in the world. Take them as a role model. Or at least an idea of what's possible, and what could be the norm.

Fight the spread or religion/firearms, fight the normalization of religion/firearms, fight the apologetic's for religion/firearms.

Just because i'm an atheist, doesn't mean a religious person has to do everything else I say. Just because i'm against weapons proliferation, doesn't mean you should listen to anything else I say. It doesn't mean i'm better in any way. But just recognize this one issue. "What is the reality of situation, despite what I desperately believe or want to believe?"

Side note: We need more "professional atheist" types not only for religious issues, but issues such as these that seem equally religious. Beliefs that are irrational, harmful, communal, and institutionally supported Consider

Lets imagine a world where you couldn't own a firearm. This notion of firearm must encompass ALL firearms. Which includes all guns used for hunting. The deer population would lead to a lot of people dying unnecessarily from car collisions, lymes disease and other problems when the deer population gets too high.

You keep saying, "thats dishonest" after each of those items listed, yet it is isn't dishonest. The thing about atheists is that they do examine the facts. I'm going by facts. Chas is going by facts. If it was conclusively determined tomorrow that without any doubt, guns do more harm to society - and myself - than good, I would gladly surrender my firearms. Provided, of course, that the laws simultaneously allow for weapons that were previously banned. In NY, it is illegal for me to own a STUN gun, carry chemical mace, an Asp (or any other kind of collapsable baton). Short of me walking around with a baseball bat, I have no way of protecting myself. STUN Guns rarely kill people. But they allow for me to use it without allowing someone who means to cause me harm get close enough to me for me to use it. Why are they illegal? But I digress...

The fact is that in almost every single state that has allowed for concealed carry, gun violence has gone DOWN.

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2013/jan/...w/?print=1

that would not support any of the conclusions that guns in the hands of legal gun owners are responsible for causing harm.

Its an odd thing, for people to be so emotional about gun violence. It is no more tragic than any other kind. Drunk Drivers kill thousands of people every year, and yet we do not call for prohibition. Why is the loss of a 4 year old girl killed by a stray bullet infinitely more tragic than a different 4 year old girl crushed under the wheel of a drunk driver? I just don't get it!

I'm not saying that gun violence isn't tragic, I just don't understand the irrational reaction of people who hear about it. Is it because auto fatalities are so prevalent that it has lost its shock factor?

A high school student just gutted a classmate in CT because she refused his invitation to the prom. He butchered her, cutting her throat and stabbing her over and over again with a utility knife (aka box cutter). Why are people not having an emotional reaction about this? Calling for the banning of box cutters?

People are violent by nature. It doesn't matter the tool, people will misuse it. I support gun control. Sensible gun control.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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30-04-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 01:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 07:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Actually, even in California, which has relatively strict laws, as long as there are no children in the house you can keep a gun locked, loaded, and safety off right next to your bed with no legal repercussions.
That sounds to me to be more dangerous than the unlikely instance of having a home invasion.

When I did have a loan of a .22 or a shotgun. I never ever had the gun loaded in or near the house. The only time I had the safety off was just before I was about to pull the trigger and the only time I had the shotgun (I don't know the technical term for it) but with the barrel clicked together rather than broken in half for loading, again I only had it ready for firing a few moments before firing.
The thought of timing myself to see how quickly I could get shots off or how quickly I could reload had never occured to me. I treat a gun as a very dangerous weapon, thus with much caution and care.

The thought of having a loaded gun, with safety off next to my bed sounds very dangerous. To me, it seems more dangerous than an intruder because I think an accident is much more likely than a home invasion which I consider extremely unlikely although not impossible.

But I do understand the concerns of people whom feel they need a loaded gun nearby. If in the event of an intruder then they don't have time to assemble a locked up gun.

Did you know in all of history, a gun has never "accidentally discharged" while no one was holding it? By virtue of having it near your bed, it is not going to magically go off unless someone is holding it and pulling the trigger. You are so fearful of guns and so uncomfortable around them, that YOU are the most dangerous thing in a situation with a gun. There is having respect for a weapon, and then there is fearing it. You don't respect it. You fear it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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30-04-2014, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 03:41 PM by Chas.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 01:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have been attacked for having misinformation and no willingness to correct it.

No one, for instance, is walking around with assault rifles; very few people actually own assault rifles.

If you want to have a reasonable conversation, you must stick to facts.
Nowhere have I asserted that people in the US are walking around with assault rifles. I don't know where you get that from.

I got it from your previous post:
"The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life."

You don't even know what an assault rifle is.

Hint: these are not assault rifles ...
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Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 01:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Nowhere have I asserted that people in the US are walking around with assault rifles. I don't know where you get that from.

I got it from your previous post:
"The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life."

You don't even know what an assault rifle is.

Hint: these are not assault rifles ...
[Image: BothEvil.jpg]

Out of curiosity, what cartridge does those rifles use?

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