Poll: Do you support the right to bear arms?
Yes
No
Keep Hunting Rifles Only
Pistols but not AR(s) + 3
Assualt Rifles + 3 & 4
[Show Results]
Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-04-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 02:34 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Did you know in all of history, a gun has never "accidentally discharged" while no one was holding it? By virtue of having it near your bed, it is not going to magically go off unless someone is holding it and pulling the trigger.
This is like someone arguing that evolution is wrong because we have never seen a chicken born from a horse.

At no point have I claimed that a gun will go off by itself.

When in discussion with people of opposing opinions there is value in assuming the best interpretation rather than the worst.
If you assume the worst then you waste time arguing strawman.

It takes just a little time to consider why handling a loaded gun might be dangerous, to consider why guns have a safety latch, to consider why a person might prefer to handle an unloaded gun rather than a loaded one.

If you weren't worried about home invasion, if you only thought of using a gun at a gun club then wouldn't you unload it before putting it in your car and taking it home? Wouldn't you put the safety on, take the magazine out, take out the bolt etc just to be on the safe side?
Why would you take these measures? Because it is safer, because accidents can and do happen.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2014, 04:39 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Probably .223

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Just a heads up, I said you *could* keep a gun loaded, safety off. I did not say you should, nor did I say most people do it. A gun kept ready for immediate use is usually kept either:

A. Loaded, chamber empty, safety off (rifle, shotgun)
B. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety on (M1911 and other single action pistols, sometimes rifle and shotgun)
C. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety off, decocked (Glock, DA and DA/SA pistols, revolvers)

In all cases the gun is basically immune to accidental discharge, but is still ready to fire ( C) or can be made ready to fire with one deliberate motion (A, B).

A gun in storage is usually kept unloaded with safety on, optionally decocked, optionally with open action. Removing the bolt or slide is usually excessive caution.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2014, 08:08 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2014 08:14 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 04:58 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Just a heads up, I said you *could* keep a gun loaded, safety off. I did not say you should, nor did I say most people do it. A gun kept ready for immediate use is usually kept either:

A. Loaded, chamber empty, safety off (rifle, shotgun)
B. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety on (M1911 and other single action pistols, sometimes rifle and shotgun)
C. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety off, decocked (Glock, DA and DA/SA pistols, revolvers)

In all cases the gun is basically immune to accidental discharge, but is still ready to fire ( C) or can be made ready to fire with one deliberate motion (A, B).

A gun in storage is usually kept unloaded with safety on, optionally decocked, optionally with open action. Removing the bolt or slide is usually excessive caution.
Thanks very much for the clarification.

I guess it depends on how risk adverse or lazy the gun owner is.
To a degree these accidents are the business of the owner. If they accidentally shoot themselves then that is their own problem.
However if they get scared at late night noises and shoot their partner in the toilet or a drunk girl then that is obviously an issue.
If they are watching TV and an intruder comes through their bedroom window grabs the gun and shoots them with their own gun then that is a problem.
If a partner gets angry and in the moment of rage picks it up and shoot their partner then that is a problem.
Which is more likely? A home intrusion or a domestic rage shooting? Here is an interesting article I found via quick google search. (I don't know of its accuracy)

It also brings me to my other concern. Where do guns used in premeditiated crimes come from?
Is it possible to trace a gun to the purchaser? If not then these guns can be freely purchased in shops, in gun shows, in private sales.
If it is possible to trace guns to the purchaser then do these guns used in premeditiated crimes need to be stolen? or is there some other way of getting them into the country and stop them being traceable?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 01:52 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 08:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It also brings me to my other concern. Where do guns used in premeditiated crimes come from?
Is it possible to trace a gun to the purchaser? If not then these guns can be freely purchased in shops, in gun shows, in private sales.
If it is possible to trace guns to the purchaser then do these guns used in premeditiated crimes need to be stolen? or is there some other way of getting them into the country and stop them being traceable?

Think of any way you could get a weapon into a country. Then think of a better way. There will be a criminal out there who has thought of something more slick and more tricky when you think you've got a tricky way of even considering it. If there wasn't, it wouldn't be an issue. Guns are stolen, purchased privately, slipped through in through transport, shipped in pieces and assembled, serial numbers filed off, barrels changed, hell, even a yard sale. You name it. Hell, there's even people who have put out blueprints on the internet so you can make your own 3D printed weapons now (yes, that is now a thing.) Of course, there's a million sources you could download that from without leaving a trace. So now if someone can't buy one or find one, they can just print one! Of course that means having access to a 3D printer, but still. I'm still waiting for the day that people are required to post up disclaimers when 3D printers end up in public use: "Disclaimer: Using this device to print firearms or firearm parts is illegal and may not be used for this purpose."

There is a reason that legal gun owners are required to register the firearm. If criminals cared about that they wouldn't be criminals. Premeditated crimes don't have a restriction on them about where the gun comes from, only that they've been thinking of a way to do it ahead of time. It could be with their own gun, the victim's gun, a stolen gun, one they bought from a black market source, etc. So "where" is a huge variable. Keep in mind not all violent premeditated crimes end up with guns.

However, this is why it's important to be careful and responsible with your firearms so that in a terrible scenario, one doesn't end up being the guy or gal who has to report to the police that someone stole your gun(s). But again, stolen guns are only method.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 03:55 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 03:47 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  I got it from your previous post:
"The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life."

You don't even know what an assault rifle is.

Hint: these are not assault rifles ...
[Image: BothEvil.jpg]

Out of curiosity, what cartridge does those rifles use?

They both use .223 Remington / 5.56x45 interchangeably.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 04:01 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 01:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Nowhere have I asserted that people in the US are walking around with assault rifles. I don't know where you get that from.

I got it from your previous post:
"The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life."
I said people carrying pistols around
OR having assault rifles.
I didn't say they were carrying around assault rifles.

I meant the idea of people carrying around pistols or owning assault rifles.
Do you comprehend????
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 05:59 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 04:01 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  I got it from your previous post:
"The idea of people carrying pistols around or having assault rifles is completely foreign to me and many people I talk to in real life."
I said people carrying pistols around
OR having assault rifles.
I didn't say they were carrying around assault rifles.

I meant the idea of people carrying around pistols or owning assault rifles.
Do you comprehend????

The more salient point was that very, very few even own assault rifles,
and they are almost never used in crimes. So, why do you keep bringing them up?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 06:13 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(30-04-2014 08:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 04:58 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Just a heads up, I said you *could* keep a gun loaded, safety off. I did not say you should, nor did I say most people do it. A gun kept ready for immediate use is usually kept either:

A. Loaded, chamber empty, safety off (rifle, shotgun)
B. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety on (M1911 and other single action pistols, sometimes rifle and shotgun)
C. Loaded, chamber loaded, safety off, decocked (Glock, DA and DA/SA pistols, revolvers)

In all cases the gun is basically immune to accidental discharge, but is still ready to fire ( C) or can be made ready to fire with one deliberate motion (A, B).

A gun in storage is usually kept unloaded with safety on, optionally decocked, optionally with open action. Removing the bolt or slide is usually excessive caution.
Thanks very much for the clarification.

I guess it depends on how risk adverse or lazy the gun owner is.
To a degree these accidents are the business of the owner. If they accidentally shoot themselves then that is their own problem.
However if they get scared at late night noises and shoot their partner in the toilet or a drunk girl then that is obviously an issue.
If they are watching TV and an intruder comes through their bedroom window grabs the gun and shoots them with their own gun then that is a problem.
If a partner gets angry and in the moment of rage picks it up and shoot their partner then that is a problem.
Which is more likely? A home intrusion or a domestic rage shooting? Here is an interesting article I found via quick google search. (I don't know of its accuracy)

It also brings me to my other concern. Where do guns used in premeditiated crimes come from?
Is it possible to trace a gun to the purchaser? If not then these guns can be freely purchased in shops, in gun shows, in private sales.
If it is possible to trace guns to the purchaser then do these guns used in premeditiated crimes need to be stolen? or is there some other way of getting them into the country and stop them being traceable?

Ok. I'm really done talking to you now. You are irrational. What's worse is that you attempt to categorize any scenario I've spoken about as irrational, using an even more irrational scenario.

I said a gun, loaded, next to your bed, wasn't inherently dangerous. I was quoting you. You said a loaded gun next to your bed was dangerous.

After I explained that a gun doesn't discharge without someone handling it, and therefore it was just as safe as it was loaded and sitting there vs unloaded and sitting there.

Then you explain that I'm irrational using an even more irrational scenario of this drunk girl stumbling into your house and needing a warm glass of milk. Or that an intruder would get into your bedroom window (before you woke up) and see your gun (in the dark), and use it on you all before you were able to wake up, roll over and grab your gun from directly next to your bed. Seriously? That's even remotely plausible?

Second, to further cement your ignorance in gun culture, having a gun "next to your bed" or "in your nightstand", is generally in a speed box. Which is a gun safe, that can open silently and quickly.

So when I say my gun is loaded is next to my bed, I didn't think I needed to clarify what is obvious to gun owner, is that it is locked in a speed safe. One touch of my finger (or my husband's finger), and the biometric safe slides open. It looks like an alarm clock/iPod player.

No gun owner would leave their gun out in the open...the fact that you don't know shows how completely and utterly irrational and dangerous you are around guns. So yeah. You shouldn't have them.

And btw - in my state, you can't have a gun if you have been arrested for domestic assault.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2014, 06:50 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 05:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  The more salient point was that very, very few even own assault rifles,
and they are almost never used in crimes. So, why do you keep bringing them up?
This is a thread about gun laws.
The thread isn't just about gun laws but also with regards to types of guns.
Option 5 of the poll is specifically about assault rifles.

The gun debate isn't about which guns are more popular. It is about whether guns provide more value to society than detriment, and also which types of guns bring more value to society than detriment.

In my opinion we ought to focus on each of the following specific groups of guns
1. hand guns
2. non semi automatic, non fully automatic rifles
3. semi automatic handguns, with magazines.
4. semi automatic rifles
5. automatic rifles

Assault rifles fall into category 4 and 5 because they have both these capabilities.

You insist that very few people own assault rifles and very few crimes are committed with assault rifles.
I say fine, But...
I want to know what the balance is.
Have semi-automatic rifles (yes I am focusing on semi-automatic here but assault rifles also have this capability) given a net positive or a net negative?
The Korean's in Koreatown during LA riot has been cited as a one off benefit.

However,
Sandy hook elementary school - AR15 26 dead
Clackamas Town Center shooting - Bushmaster M4 Type Carbine 2 dead
Cleveland Elementary School shooting - Chinese Type 56 rifle 5 dead 30 wounded
I'm sure there are more.



Hand guns naturally would be more popular for both criminals and for people looking to have guns for protection because they are easily concealable and easy to carry. So naturally most crimes and most gun related deaths would be via hand guns.
These gun types should also be assessed as to whether they provide a net benefit or net detriment.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: