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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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01-05-2014, 07:08 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 06:50 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 05:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  The more salient point was that very, very few even own assault rifles,
and they are almost never used in crimes. So, why do you keep bringing them up?
This is a thread about gun laws.
The thread isn't just about gun laws but also with regards to types of guns.
Option 5 of the poll is specifically about assault rifles.

The gun debate isn't about which guns are more popular. It is about whether guns provide more value to society than detriment, and also which types of guns bring more value to society than detriment.

In my opinion we ought to focus on each of the following specific groups of guns
1. hand guns
2. non semi automatic, non fully automatic rifles
3. semi automatic handguns, with magazines.
4. semi automatic rifles
5. automatic rifles

Assault rifles fall into category 4 and 5 because they have both these capabilities.

You insist that very few people own assault rifles and very few crimes are committed with assault rifles.
I say fine, But...
I want to know what the balance is.
Have semi-automatic rifles (yes I am focusing on semi-automatic here but assault rifles also have this capability) given a net positive or a net negative?
The Korean's in Koreatown during LA riot has been cited as a one off benefit.

However,
Sandy hook elementary school - AR15 26 dead
Clackamas Town Center shooting - Bushmaster M4 Type Carbine 2 dead
Cleveland Elementary School shooting - Chinese Type 56 rifle 5 dead 30 wounded
I'm sure there are more.



Hand guns naturally would be more popular for both criminals and for people looking to have guns for protection because they are easily concealable and easy to carry. So naturally most crimes and most gun related deaths would be via hand guns.
These gun types should also be assessed as to whether they provide a net benefit or net detriment.

Assault rifles are restricted weapons because they are fully automatic. It does not matter one bit that they are selective fire, so they are category 5.

None of the crimes you listed were committed with assault rifles. Stop confusing things with inaccurate terminology.

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01-05-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
I really want to know why a 4 year old girl hit by a stray bullet is considerably more tragic than a 4 year old run down by a drunk driver.

Why is gun violence viewed with more outrage than any other violence?

Drunk driving kills and injures more innocent people than any gun violence, yet, we do not call for prohibition of alcohol or automobile use. Why?

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01-05-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 08:02 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I really want to know why a 4 year old girl hit by a stray bullet is considerably more tragic than a 4 year old run down by a drunk driver.

Why is gun violence viewed with more outrage than any other violence?

Drunk driving kills and injures more innocent people than any gun violence, yet, we do not call for prohibition of alcohol or automobile use. Why?

This ^^^^

I want to understand the emotional attachment to gun violence. It's like gun deaths 'count' for more than other deaths. I sometimes get the feeling it's not about saving as many lives as possible. If that were the case, we'd do better to start with the automobile and alcohol industries. It's about ego and emotion.

If you want to save lives...
Why do we need commuter cars to go 100 MPH? Why not put a speed limiter on every automobile that restricts your speed to 75MPH?
Why not have cars that won't start until the seat belt is on?
Why not have recurrent driving exams every two years (like private pilots have to do)?
Why serve alcohol publicly at all?
Why not require bars to give all patrons a breathalyzer before allowing them to leave the parking lot?

These solutions seem no more difficult, and would be more effective at saving lives, than the removal of firearms from the public. These are just made-up for argument's sake, but if your goal is to save innocent lives, these should appeal to you just as strongly as any sort of firearm regulation or ban.

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01-05-2014, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 12:48 PM by PoolBoyG.)
Exclamation RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 08:02 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I really want to know why a 4 year old girl hit by a stray bullet is considerably more tragic than a 4 year old run down by a drunk driver.

Why is gun violence viewed with more outrage than any other violence?

Drunk driving kills and injures more innocent people than any gun violence, yet, we do not call for prohibition of alcohol or automobile use. Why?

A very poor comparison. You might as well try to compare food to firearms, since people choke.

1. Millions upon millions of cars are used daily.
2. Millions of lives are uplifted via mobility, economically it's a necessity, lives are indeed saved.
3. To further expand on the above, A CARS PURPOSE IS NOT TO SHOOT OR MURDER PEOPLE.

Firearms are a net negative... extremely so. Lining the pockets of manufacturers and lobbyists, and stroking the ego of the paranoid, and aiding racists/murders/criminals is not a justification for the tens of thousands murdered each year.

We have other countries, right now, that don't swim in a sea of firearms. Who are more educated, richer than the US (person to person), secular. And who are complete allies of the US. They make up the majority of the "first world". There are other realities to choose and pick from, and work towards than apologizing for this one.
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01-05-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 12:29 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 08:02 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I really want to know why a 4 year old girl hit by a stray bullet is considerably more tragic than a 4 year old run down by a drunk driver.

Why is gun violence viewed with more outrage than any other violence?

Drunk driving kills and injures more innocent people than any gun violence, yet, we do not call for prohibition of alcohol or automobile use. Why?

A very poor comparison. You might as well try to compare food to firearms, since people choke.

1. Millions upon millions of cars are used daily.
2. Millions of lives are uplifted via mobility, economically it's a necessity, lives are indeed saved.
3. To further expand on the above, A CARS PURPOSE IS NOT TO SHOOT OR MURDER PEOPLE.

Firearms are a net negative... extremely so. Lining the pockets of manufacturers and lobbyists, and stroking the ego of the paranoid, and aiding racists/murders/criminals is not a justification for the tens of thousands murdered each year.

It's not a poor comparison. The point is that if the only purpose to restrict guns is to save lives, then focus on something that will carry more impact. Comparatively to drunk driving, tobacco, or even something like heart disease, gun deaths are a drop in the bucket. Guns spark much more of an emotional reaction though.

Hypothetically, if you didn't know what the cause of death was, and just saw a statistic that said "A kills 20% of people, B kills 35% of people, and C kills 8% of people. Which one should we focus on to save the most lives?" Chances are that without knowing the cause, and just how many people were affected, you'd pick A or B. But then we classify them and say A is drunk driving, B is heart disease, and C is guns, then suddenly attitudes change.

I'm not saying that there can't be reform. And yes, recently there seems to be a spike in nut jobs shooting some place up. But let's be honest too. If we're only concerned with saving the maximum amount of lives, then guns are not where our focus needs to be.

You're right, a cars purpose is not to shoot or murder. It's purpose is entirely dependent on the person operating it. Every industry lines the pockets of manufacturers and lobbyists- not just firearms. I don't get the argument on that one. Stroking the ego of the paranoid? I certainly wouldn't call it that for a family who has had home invasion, or for a woman who has been raped. Aiding racists, murders, and criminals? Then by the same token, let's restrict cars or any other tool that criminals use that non-criminals also use.

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01-05-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  Assault rifles are restricted weapons because they are fully automatic. It does not matter one bit that they are selective fire, so they are category 5.

None of the crimes you listed were committed with assault rifles. Stop confusing things with inaccurate terminology.
Assault rilfes are both category 4 and category 5 because they have semi-automatic function and fully automatic function. 5 is worse than 4 so if I can show that 4 should be restricted then obviously 5 should be restricted as well. It is called killing two birds with one stone.

All of the crimes I listed were with semi automatic rifles. If you restrict semi-automatic rifles then you will also restrict assault rifles. I am not confusing the terminology.
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01-05-2014, 12:54 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 10:57 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 08:02 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I really want to know why a 4 year old girl hit by a stray bullet is considerably more tragic than a 4 year old run down by a drunk driver.

Why is gun violence viewed with more outrage than any other violence?

Drunk driving kills and injures more innocent people than any gun violence, yet, we do not call for prohibition of alcohol or automobile use. Why?

This ^^^^

I want to understand the emotional attachment to gun violence.
This is a thread about guns, you could start a thread about alchohol and we could start analysing the pros and cons about that.
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01-05-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Facepalm

This isn't an either or. You can focus on whatever issue you want.

Some of us like to raise awareness on the issue of things designed SPECIFICALLY to shoot and murder. And the massive campaigns that make this issue even worse. Firearms are as numerous (granted less people own firearms, just bought up by a "passionate" few), and are more unregulated and proliferated than ever.

And yes, senseless and needless murders and deaths is emotional. It gets people angry how insane firearm proliferators are.The more firearms in the area, the more you're likely to be shot. You can throw in all the arguments of, oh, women won't be abused or raped if they just bought some guns. Women are #1 victims of households with guns.

Just read over my previous post again.

Stop apologizing for the current deadly, paranoid, broken culture and systems. This is religious thinking.
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01-05-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 12:59 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Facepalm

This isn't an either or. You can focus on whatever issue you want.

Some of us like to raise awareness on the issue of things designed SPECIFICALLY to shoot and murder. And the massive campaigns that make this issue even worse. Firearms are as numerous (granted less people own firearms, just bought up by a "passionate" few), and are more unregulated and proliferated than ever.

And yes, senseless and needless murders and deaths is emotional. It gets people angry how insane firearm proliferators are.The more firearms in the area, the more you're likely to be shot. You can throw in all the arguments of, oh, women won't be abused or raped if they just bought some guns. Women are #1 victims of households with guns.

Just read over my previous post again.

Stop apologizing for the current deadly, paranoid, broken culture and systems. This is religious thinking.

Was that directed at me? I don't recall apologizing for anything. And a gun is not "specifically" designed to murder. They're designed to fire a projectile. That doesn't mean their specific purpose is murder Facepalm

And I didn't say women won't be raped or abused. But a gun can give them a better chance of fighting off an assailant.

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01-05-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(01-05-2014 01:24 PM)=jesse= Wrote:  And I didn't say women won't be raped or abused. But a gun can give them a better chance of fighting off an assailant.
A gun also gives a woman a better chance of being murdered by her partner
The facts on guns and domestic violence

Quote:A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than
three times as many women are murdered by guns used by their husbands or intimate acquaintances
than are killed by strangers’ guns, knives or other weapons combined

Quote:A study of women physically abused by current or former intimate partners found a five-fold
increased risk of the partner murdering the woman when the partner owned a gun.
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