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Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
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13-08-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 02:16 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(13-08-2012 01:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I'm not addressing the violence part of the discussion, and don't plan to. Been there done that. I'm simply pointing out that for some of us, a gun really is a necessity.

Now... if only there was a way of addressing vermin... like someone you could call to rid yourself of them... or some kind of trap-related mechanism...

I guess you'll have to make do with all of the gun deaths, instead.

You do realize I am in Canada, not the states, right? Here we had a gun registry, and got rid of it because it proved ineffective for curbing crime. All it did was take the rifle out of the hands of farmers and hunters.

I don't trap animals because of the extreme suffering they have to endure. At the end of the day, if a critter puts my food production at risk, I will eliminate it, but trapping just ain't my bag. Just because it's a pest, doesn't mean I shouldn't do away with it in the most humane manner. And calling pest control would be useless. If all the farmers had to employ such a service, there would be a multi day, or even multi week waiting list, and any farmer knows that 24 hours is enough time for a fox to kill a whole coop full of chickens.

Just as a caveat, I don't live trap either. Live trapping means moving an animal, which just makes it someone else's problem. Just thought I should address that.

I'm trying to be a little more open than the last discussion on this, so I'll ask a question......for real. Can you think of an alternative for someone like me that depends on needing a gun a few times a year to put food on my table? I ask because I am not exaggerating when I say that one raccoon, fox, or even skunk can mean not feeding my family.

Just visiting.

-SR
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13-08-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 02:58 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I'm trying to be a little more open than the last discussion on this, so I'll ask a question......for real. Can you think of an alternative for someone like me that depends on needing a gun a few times a year to put food on my table? I ask because I am not exaggerating when I say that one raccoon, fox, or even skunk can mean not feeding my family.

This was the reason I replied the way that I did:-
"I'm simply pointing out that for some of us, a gun really is a necessity."

The vermin argument was made in the other thread... as if countries with gun controls don't know what vermin is. There are means of ridding yourself of them, without guns being a necessity.

In your case, if you are in a rural setting and (are in effect) a farmer... you can apply for a gun-licence and be granted such a thing. UK farmers have access to guns (usually shotguns). So, yes. I think you are justified in having a gun. Someone in an urban setting using the vermin excuse isn't.
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13-08-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 03:12 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(13-08-2012 02:58 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I'm trying to be a little more open than the last discussion on this, so I'll ask a question......for real. Can you think of an alternative for someone like me that depends on needing a gun a few times a year to put food on my table? I ask because I am not exaggerating when I say that one raccoon, fox, or even skunk can mean not feeding my family.

This was the reason I replied the way that I did:-
"I'm simply pointing out that for some of us, a gun really is a necessity."

The vermin argument was made in the other thread... as if countries with gun controls don't know what vermin is. There are means of ridding yourself of them, without guns being a necessity.

In your case, if you are in a rural setting and (are in effect) a farmer... you can apply for a gun-licence and be granted such a thing. UK farmers have access to guns (usually shotguns). So, yes. I think you are justified in having a gun. Someone in an urban setting using the vermin excuse isn't.

Thanks for the clarity. I think I understand your position a little better now.

Just visiting.

-SR
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13-08-2012, 04:03 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
Just to clarify... as a liberal, the idea of banning anything is nauseating to me. People should be allowed to do whatever they want to do... so long as it harms nobody else. Of course, there are individuals who are perfectly competent at using guns, and are very little danger to themselves, let alone to others... but the bigger picture (as evidenced by the statistics) is that America has a problem due to a lack of proper controls.

I'm trying my best to withdraw from the argument (believe it or not) because I am well aware that some people will just never accept that there is an argument for the greater good, that necessitates greater controls than currently exist. The greatest annoyance is when some Americans give (what they consider good) reasons for the status quo... stated as if the USA somehow has a society that is so totally different to the rest of the civilised world.

Point out the errors in one of their defence points and they'll switch to one of the others... which (mainly) consist of:-

Self defence (against criminals)
Self defence (against the government)
Hunting
Vermin control

Guns are meant to kill things. If you are a farmer and killing things makes the difference between success and failure... then you are justified in the use of a gun. If you are in an urban setting, one of the "costs" of having lots of neighbours is that your actions allow for their well-being. In that setting, vermin control should be done by professionals.

Hunting... is a sport, for entertainment purposes. If it makes the difference between a broken society and a tiny minority enjoying a sport... it is arguable that there are grounds to limit hunting (possibly to extinction) for the greater good. At the very least, rifles (and only rifles) will make the country safer.

Self defence... take all of the guns out of society and that is no longer a necessity. Removing them all isn't an easy task, and I won't pretend that it is... but with amnesties for hand-ins and severe penalties for illegal ownership... over time, the USA will be a safer place to live. The extremities of criminal society will still have guns, but they'll primarily be used against other criminals.

I'm not suggesting that this is a course towards a gun-free Utopia. It will, however, be a course towards a safer country.

As a footnote, I have a lot of American family members. A cousin once suggested that I move there. There are 3 reasons why I couldn't live in America:-

Religion
Healthcare
Guns
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13-08-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 04:03 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  Just to clarify... as a liberal, the idea of banning anything is nauseating to me. People should be allowed to do whatever they want to do... so long as it harms nobody else. Of course, there are individuals who are perfectly competent at using guns, and are very little danger to themselves, let alone to others... but the bigger picture (as evidenced by the statistics) is that America has a problem due to a lack of proper controls.

I'm trying my best to withdraw from the argument (believe it or not) because I am well aware that some people will just never accept that there is an argument for the greater good, that necessitates greater controls than currently exist. The greatest annoyance is when some Americans give (what they consider good) reasons for the status quo... stated as if the USA somehow has a society that is so totally different to the rest of the civilised world.

Point out the errors in one of their defence points and they'll switch to one of the others... which (mainly) consist of:-

Self defence (against criminals)
Self defence (against the government)
Hunting
Vermin control

Guns are meant to kill things. If you are a farmer and killing things makes the difference between success and failure... then you are justified in the use of a gun. If you are in an urban setting, one of the "costs" of having lots of neighbours is that your actions allow for their well-being. In that setting, vermin control should be done by professionals.

Hunting... is a sport, for entertainment purposes. If it makes the difference between a broken society and a tiny minority enjoying a sport... it is arguable that there are grounds to limit hunting (possibly to extinction) for the greater good. At the very least, rifles (and only rifles) will make the country safer.

Self defence... take all of the guns out of society and that is no longer a necessity. Removing them all isn't an easy task, and I won't pretend that it is... but with amnesties for hand-ins and severe penalties for illegal ownership... over time, the USA will be a safer place to live. The extremities of criminal society will still have guns, but they'll primarily be used against other criminals.

I'm not suggesting that this is a course towards a gun-free Utopia. It will, however, be a course towards a safer country.

As a footnote, I have a lot of American family members. A cousin once suggested that I move there. There are 3 reasons why I couldn't live in America:-

Religion
Healthcare
Guns

The U.S. has a lot of gun control laws, some states better, some worse. I agree that the laws are necessary and useful, and that some could use improving.

I live in the country in an apple orchard and I have animals. The deer, ground hogs, skunks, mice, etc. threaten my crop, the foxes, coyotes, fishers, etc. threaten my animals. I have appropriate firearms.

And then there is rabies. You don't screw around, you shoot the animal. Had to dispatch a raccoon a couple of years ago.

I am not a large guy and I am physically handicapped. My house is not visible to neighbors or the road. The police could not be here in time in an emergency. I have a firearm for self-defense. You begrudge me that?
My guns do not make the society violent - I have the guns because nature and the society are violent.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-08-2012, 06:54 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
I don't have an objection to guns, per se. People want to have guns in their homes for protection, to hunt, etc., that's fine with me. I don't own one but that is my choice. I don't believe in imposing my choices on other people.

That said, where I have a problem is with the idea that John Q. Citizen needs to have access to military style weaponry like what was used in the Aurora shootings or that ordinary people can buy armor piercing bullets. What kind of deer is roaming the woods wearing body armor that you need that type of fire power.

You are never going to completely remove guns from the equation and I don't advocate that. And, the murders at the Sikh temple last week demonstrates that even a maniac with an ordinary hand gun can still wreak a certain level of havoc. However, what the ordinary hand gun cannot do is the type of mass killings we saw at Virginia Tech a few years ago, or in Aurora or in so many places before that. The amount of gun violence is out of control. When ordinary people can buy weapons that shoot thousands of rounds and can be easily converted from semi-automatic to automatic weapons, there is a problem.

Military style weapons should absolutely not be available to the general public. That is not going to solve the over reaching problem because most gun crimes and murders and accidental shootings are not the result of some idiot with an AK47 but if we can at least start removing the insane level weapons, we can at least start to minimize some of the more sensationalized mass murders we've seen.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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13-08-2012, 07:32 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 06:54 PM)BnW Wrote:  I don't have an objection to guns, per se. People want to have guns in their homes for protection, to hunt, etc., that's fine with me. I don't own one but that is my choice. I don't believe in imposing my choices on other people.

That said, where I have a problem is with the idea that John Q. Citizen needs to have access to military style weaponry like what was used in the Aurora shootings or that ordinary people can buy armor piercing bullets. What kind of deer is roaming the woods wearing body armor that you need that type of fire power.

You are never going to completely remove guns from the equation and I don't advocate that. And, the murders at the Sikh temple last week demonstrates that even a maniac with an ordinary hand gun can still wreak a certain level of havoc. However, what the ordinary hand gun cannot do is the type of mass killings we saw at Virginia Tech a few years ago, or in Aurora or in so many places before that. The amount of gun violence is out of control. When ordinary people can buy weapons that shoot thousands of rounds and can be easily converted from semi-automatic to automatic weapons, there is a problem.

Military style weapons should absolutely not be available to the general public. That is not going to solve the over reaching problem because most gun crimes and murders and accidental shootings are not the result of some idiot with an AK47 but if we can at least start removing the insane level weapons, we can at least start to minimize some of the more sensationalized mass murders we've seen.

I have a hunting rifle and I have a 'military style' rifle that use the same ammunition, both are semi-automatic, both take box magazines, they have the same length barrels, they have identical ballistics.
The whole argument of 'military style' weapons is empty, devoid of factual content; it is entirely emotional, a scare tactic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-08-2012, 10:10 PM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 01:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Just goin on record here.....last night I had to shoot a skunk. It took up residence under my chicken coop. If I hadn't shot it, it would reproduce and I'd have even more. Skunks mean dead chickens, no eggs, and dogs that suffer from swollen eyes and burned throats. Not to mention the smell that forces me to leave the dogs outside if they get sprayed.

I'm not addressing the violence part of the discussion, and don't plan to. Been there done that. I'm simply pointing out that for some of us, a gun really is a necessity.


Now if only I could get my sights on that fox that comes and eats my laying hens I'd be a happy man.

Hey Erx, ya better hide out for a while 'cos Stark's on the hunting path...

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14-08-2012, 12:07 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
I feel that guns should be allowed, and maybe more gun education is needed.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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14-08-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: Atheists; Gun Rights Acknowledgement
(13-08-2012 02:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-08-2012 12:40 PM)Observer Wrote:  Don't ban guns.
Ban shoelaces
It's what killed my parents

Sad Still feel sad whenever I think about this. Hope you're remembering the good times nowadays...
I do Morondog.

It's only that it changed my world-view on what's good a bad quite a bit.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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