Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
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20-05-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Theist Friend: "If Atheism, isn't a religion then why do you have Atheist Churches?"

Me: "Atheist churches?"

Theist Friend "You know. Like the Smithsonian."

Me: "You mean Museums?!" Facepalm


________________________

In a friendly religious discussion with some friends.

Catholic Friend: "If "we" evolved from apes,then why are there still apes?"

Me: "If Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?"

Mormon Friend: "He's got us there."

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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07-06-2015, 03:53 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
I am a newbie here. Great forum.

Personally, I disagree that there is a real dichotomy between atheism and religion.

Given that there are religions that incorporate atheism, you can argue that there are religious atheists.

My view has evolved over time. It is that you will find atheists of all stripes.

There will be those who are atheists because they don't believe in deities. Period.

And there will be those whose atheism is informed by empiricism.

Then others in between. They were raised atheist or told by some authority. Countless possibilities.

The only thing that ties atheists together is the absence of a belief in deities.

The OPs intention in this thread would appear to be that absence of a belief in a deity is religious. Is that correct?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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07-06-2015, 04:24 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 03:53 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Given that there are religions that incorporate atheism, you can argue that there are religious atheists.

Examples?

I know there's astrologers that try to link themselves to atheism. But they aren't atheists.

(07-06-2015 03:53 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I am a newbie here. Great forum.

Personally, I disagree that there is a real dichotomy between atheism and religion.

[...]

My view has evolved over time. It is that you will find atheists of all stripes.

There will be those who are atheists because they don't believe in deities. Period.

And there will be those whose atheism is informed by empiricism.

Then others in between. They were raised atheist or told by some authority. Countless possibilities.

The only thing that ties atheists together is the absence of a belief in deities.

The OPs intention in this thread would appear to be that absence of a belief in a deity is religious. Is that correct?

What's your definition of religion exactly?

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07-06-2015, 04:51 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Buddhism, Snake.

Te OP is an idiot, tomilay.

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07-06-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 04:24 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 03:53 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Given that there are religions that incorporate atheism, you can argue that there are religious atheists.

Examples?

I know there's astrologers that try to link themselves to atheism. But they aren't atheists.

(07-06-2015 03:53 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I am a newbie here. Great forum.

Personally, I disagree that there is a real dichotomy between atheism and religion.

[...]

My view has evolved over time. It is that you will find atheists of all stripes.

There will be those who are atheists because they don't believe in deities. Period.

And there will be those whose atheism is informed by empiricism.

Then others in between. They were raised atheist or told by some authority. Countless possibilities.

The only thing that ties atheists together is the absence of a belief in deities.

The OPs intention in this thread would appear to be that absence of a belief in a deity is religious. Is that correct?

What's your definition of religion exactly?
An example given by houseofcantor mentions Buddhism as one such religion.

In my view, I summarize religion as a set of beliefs that does not change in response to empirical feedback.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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07-06-2015, 07:15 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 06:59 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, I summarize religion as a set of beliefs that does not change in response to empirical feedback.

If the feedback does not disconfirm the belief then not changing is the right response. Your definition would be better as "a set of beliefs that does not change in response to contrary empirical feedback".

There are some people who are religious about their atheism in the same sense that there are some that are religious about sports or any other passion. Outside of that kind of metaphorical sense it isn't the same thing. Even Buddhists and other "atheist" religions have a supernatural/spiritual something that they are venerating without evidence.




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07-06-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 07:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 06:59 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, I summarize religion as a set of beliefs that does not change in response to empirical feedback.

If the feedback does not disconfirm the belief then not changing is the right response. Your definition would be better as "a set of beliefs that does not change in response to contrary empirical feedback".

There are some people who are religious about their atheism in the same sense that there are some that are religious about sports or any other passion. Outside of that kind of metaphorical sense it isn't the same thing. Even Buddhists and other "atheist" religions have a supernatural/spiritual something that they are venerating without evidence.



That's correct. Negative feedback.

In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science. The ONLY difference is that one welcomes and even seeks negative feedback. The other is or seeks ways to be impervious to it.

There is also a common misconception which conflates atheism with science and contrasts it with religion.

To me, there isn't anything to atheism more than an absence of belief in a deity. The reasons can be as varied as there are atheists.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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07-06-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
I know you're new here and everything but sorry, some negative feedback...

(07-06-2015 06:59 AM)tomilay Wrote:  ...
In my view, I summarize religion as a set of beliefs that does not change in response to empirical [negative] feedback.

That would classify the RCC as not a religion.

Let's count the Reformation as 'negative feedback' regarding the excesses of the church and Torquemada etc.

They haven't been involved in the mass extermination of e.g. Jews for 70 years now.

That's progress.

(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  ...
In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science.
...

Prevalent?

I think not. Unless you are using a loose definition of 'faith' as e.g. trust or hope.

Faith is 'believe without (or in spite of) evidence'. That would be very bad science.

Shy

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07-06-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 04:24 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 03:53 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Given that there are religions that incorporate atheism, you can argue that there are religious atheists.

Examples?

There are Christian atheists.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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07-06-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 08:31 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I know you're new here and everything but sorry, some negative feedback...

(07-06-2015 06:59 AM)tomilay Wrote:  ...
In my view, I summarize religion as a set of beliefs that does not change in response to empirical [negative] feedback.

That would classify the RCC as not a religion.

Let's count the Reformation as 'negative feedback' regarding the excesses of the church and Torquemada etc.

They haven't been involved in the mass extermination of e.g. Jews for 70 years now.

That's progress.

(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  ...
In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science.
...

Prevalent?

I think not. Unless you are using a loose definition of 'faith' as e.g. trust or hope.

Faith is 'believe without (or in spite of) evidence'. That would be very bad science.

Shy
By that definition, there will indeed be aspects of behavior that qualify as non-religious. Even in institutions like RCC.

I think RCC is religious because of its doctrines. Not everything they do is religious.

In the same vein, one could argue that elements of science are religious because of axioms.

I agree my view on faith is necessarily broad. Encompassing trust, hope, intuition etc.

Applying that principle.

If two people, one scientific and one religious, start off believing today that the earth is flat.

The scientific one will immediately be on a self-correcting trajectory. Incorporating facts that contradict that view.

The religious one will be on a trajectory that tends to move as little as possible away from the view. Rationalizing away any contradictions.

What is interesting? At a given moment, you could even have a religious approach approximate the empirical truth better than a current scientific one.

The only difference being that the scientific approach will eventually approach or surpass that position.

Self-correction by incorporation of feedback. Science is relentless. Religion is loath.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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