Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-06-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science. The ONLY difference is that one welcomes and even seeks negative feedback. The other is or seeks ways to be impervious to it.

This is incorrect. The requirement for peer review torpedoes your point. In the scientific endeavor, if faith was prevalent peer-review and replication would not be practiced.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science. The ONLY difference is that one welcomes and even seeks negative feedback. The other is or seeks ways to be impervious to it.

That depends on your definition of the word faith. In a colloquial sense it can mean something akin to trust and theists like to equivocate that with the religious sense of the word to claim that atheists have faith.

The faith that scientists have in their theories is based on the extensive evidence for them and the proven track record of the scientific method. I try not to use the word faith for that because it is too easy to misinterpret as the unevidenced gullibility that theists exhibit.

Quote:There is also a common misconception which conflates atheism with science and contrasts it with religion.

That is understandable since there is a strong correlation as most atheists are realists and science can back up what it says with the evidence. It is possible to be an atheist and accept other forms of woo or to deny science but the overlap is huge.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
07-06-2015, 09:57 AM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2015 10:07 AM by tomilay.)
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 09:29 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science. The ONLY difference is that one welcomes and even seeks negative feedback. The other is or seeks ways to be impervious to it.

This is incorrect. The requirement for peer review torpedoes your point. In the scientific endeavor, if faith was prevalent peer-review and replication would not be practiced.
Most of us take on faith, what we see with our eyes. Faith in that context is the trust you have that the information conveyed to your eyes and from your eyes to your brain is real.

My main point is that faith is NOT what distinguishes science from religion. But rather what the sum of evidence, including contradictions do to that faith.

Peer review is interesting. It's purpose, as I understand it, is to preserve the integrity of science. A noble goal. Yet in doing so, it must necessarily protect things the scientific community considers, with good reason, untouchable.

If an observation violates an axiom, it cannot be true. Something has to be wrong with the observation. Everything is done to try and rationalize the observation within the constraints of the axiom.

While I understand the need for the integrity of science. It could be argued that this is a religious aspect of science.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2015, 10:02 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 09:57 AM)tomilay Wrote:  ...
It could be argued that this is a religious aspect of science.

And most here would argue against that.

If I may channel Minimalist here "I'm not gonna give 'em an inch".

Wink

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Sigh....... Same ignorant shit different day

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like goodwithoutgod's post
07-06-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 09:46 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 07:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  In my view, faith is prevalent in both religion and science. The ONLY difference is that one welcomes and even seeks negative feedback. The other is or seeks ways to be impervious to it.

That depends on your definition of the word faith. In a colloquial sense it can mean something akin to trust and theists like to equivocate that with the religious sense of the word to claim that atheists have faith.

The faith that scientists have in their theories is based on the extensive evidence for them and the proven track record of the scientific method. I try not to use the word faith for that because it is too easy to misinterpret as the unevidenced gullibility that theists exhibit.
I am fine with whatever the religious wish to refer to faith as. Because I don't see it as the issue per se.

I agree that in principle, scientific faith is based on solid empirical evidence. Even if one allows for politics to which it is not immune.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 09:57 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Most of us take on faith, what we see with our eyes. Faith in that context is the trust you have that the information conveyed to your eyes and from your eyes to your brain is real.

That is not faith in the same sense that people take religious beliefs on faith. Using the same word for both only contributes to the misunderstanding and makes clear communication impossible.

Quote:My main point is that faith is NOT what distinguishes science from religion. But rather what the sum of evidence, including contradictions do to that faith.

Your main point appears to be that if you equivocate on the definition used then you can apply the word faith to any belief. I do not find that to be a productive approach.

Quote:Peer review is interesting. It's purpose, as I understand it, is to preserve the integrity of science. A noble goal. Yet in doing so, it must necessarily protect things the scientific community considers, with good reason, untouchable.

Then you don't understand it. Nothing in science is untouchable. Some things have been so thoroughly tested that challengers will require a great deal of evidence but that's not the same thing. The integrity of the scientific process is preserved through the ability to challenge even long-held beliefs which is the opposite of what you are describing. It is religion that has untouchable beliefs.

Quote:If an observation violates an axiom, it cannot be true.

Not true.

Quote:Something has to be wrong with the observation. Everything is done to try and rationalize the observation within the constraints of the axiom.

Where the "axiom" has been useful and reliable for long periods it makes sense to challenge competing observations because the odds that there is something wrong with them is high. That does not mean that scientists are unwilling to have ideas challenged or to modify their ideas if new observations successfully demonstrate that they should.

Quote:While I understand the need for the integrity of science. It could be argued that this is a religious aspect of science.

You can argue anything but, from my perspective, you have a very skewed understanding of the scientific method so your arguments aren't convincing at all.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
07-06-2015, 02:29 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-06-2015 09:57 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Most of us take on faith, what we see with our eyes. Faith in that context is the trust you have that the information conveyed to your eyes and from your eyes to your brain is real.

That is not faith in the same sense that people take religious beliefs on faith. Using the same word for both only contributes to the misunderstanding and makes clear communication impossible.
How is it different from religious faith? The only difference I can see if from degree of leap. I just think that one is willing to take a bigger leap with a larger tolerance for error. The scientific faith is less tolerant of error.

(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:My main point is that faith is NOT what distinguishes science from religion. But rather what the sum of evidence, including contradictions do to that faith.

Your main point appears to be that if you equivocate on the definition used then you can apply the word faith to any belief. I do not find that to be a productive approach.
My point is that faith is at the heart of everything we believe in(scientific or otherwise). I susbscribe to a broad definition of faith.

(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:Peer review is interesting. It's purpose, as I understand it, is to preserve the integrity of science. A noble goal. Yet in doing so, it must necessarily protect things the scientific community considers, with good reason, untouchable.

Then you don't understand it. Nothing in science is untouchable. Some things have been so thoroughly tested that challengers will require a great deal of evidence but that's not the same thing. The integrity of the scientific process is preserved through the ability to challenge even long-held beliefs which is the opposite of what you are describing. It is religion that has untouchable beliefs.
I have faith that you know that an axiom is not the same thing as a long held belief. It is just a belief that is taken to be self evident. Purely on faith.

About testing and challenging. That is the same point I make about science.

(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:If an observation violates an axiom, it cannot be true.

Not true.
Define an axiom.

(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:Something has to be wrong with the observation. Everything is done to try and rationalize the observation within the constraints of the axiom.

Where the "axiom" has been useful and reliable for long periods it makes sense to challenge competing observations because the odds that there is something wrong with them is high. That does not mean that scientists are unwilling to have ideas challenged or to modify their ideas if new observations successfully demonstrate that they should.
That is valid, not just for axioms, but other established scientific facts as well. It also agrees with my points about how science differs from religion.

The thing with peer reviews, aside from politics and normal human weaknesses. Is that they permit a potentially valid observation to be dismissed on the basis of a long held principle.

Not to dismiss the value of such principles, because there are good reasons, not least of all evidence, for cherishing them. But the principle is, this is a example where scientific a belief can trump an actual observation.
(07-06-2015 12:14 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:While I understand the need for the integrity of science. It could be argued that this is a religious aspect of science.

You can argue anything but, from my perspective, you have a very skewed understanding of the scientific method so your arguments aren't convincing at all.
I think it is important to recognize that scientific models, while they give us the best chance at unlocking new knowledge of the world, they are not a substitute for reality. They remain just models.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
Ye gods, I am super inspired to make a relevant comment Smile

Here it is: Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
07-06-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Atheists are religious, Atheism is a religion
As you said, Most people have faith in what they can see with their eyes.

The context of faith in a religious meaning is believing things you can't see with your eyes. It's just accepting it because you feel it or it must be that way in the belief.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: